SUVs make up more than 40% of new cars sold in the UK – while fully electric vehicles account for less than 2%

[Rob Ray]

An explosion in SUV numbers and both long and short term trends of a decline in road deaths. Pretty sure LTNs aren't carrying that much weight given that SUV's are supposedly 8x more lethal

Road deaths have been declining since the 1960s despite rising road use. What you're arguing here is that this proves SUVs aren't more dangerous than other cars. But it doesn't prove anything like that. What it proves is that road safety in general has tended to get better over time.

 

[platinumsage]

However you try and twist it, your SUV remains bigger, heavier, less efficient and more polluting than comparable smaller cars. So you're deluding yourself.

No it doesn't, as has been explained within the previous 65 pages. And if it was, it would still be safer to pedestrians, emit less CO2 and do less mileage than the average car, so I'd still be doing my bit to bring down the average number of child deaths and the average CO2 emissions caused by cars on the UK's roads.

 

[platinumsage]

Road deaths have been declining since the 1960s despite rising road use. What you're arguing here is that this proves SUVs aren't more dangerous than other cars. But it doesn't prove anything like that. What it proves is that road safety in general has tended to get better over time.

Nope, that's not what I'm arguing. I'm asking for evidence that SUVs in the UK are more dangerous than other cars (maybe 8 times more deadly). I'm not finding it in your contortions about the decline in road deaths.

 

[Flavour]

platinumsage: doing his bit to bring down the average number of child deaths and the average CO2 emissions caused by cars on the UK's roads!

 

[T & P]

* Gets popcorn picnic basket out of Range Rover to read thread whilst having lunch...

 

[platinumsage]

platinumsage: doing his bit to bring down the average number of child deaths and the average CO2 emissions caused by cars on the UK's roads!

Don't thank me too soon - the leasing company are collecting my small Volvo SUV at the end of the month and if Nissan haven't got their act together with my order I might end up in a large CO2-guzzling estate car for a while! I'm sure that would be totally cool with everyone here, as it wouldn't be a SUV, but I'm pretty sure it's child-killing abilities due to lack of pedestrian-detection would be massive.

 

[Rob Ray]

Nope, that's not what I'm arguing. I'm asking for evidence that SUVs in the UK are more dangerous than other cars (maybe 8 times more deadly). I'm not finding it in your contortions about the decline in road deaths.

You presented evidence which you thought showed SUVs aren't more dangerous than other cars. I put your evidence in context and pointed out it doesn't show that. No contortions were required to do so. You have been shown multiple studies showing SUVs to be more dangerous, you've been rejecting them because you'd like your own motor to be an exception.

Which it might be, who knows, but for some reason* rather than go down the path of saying, eg. "my car hasn't got a raised bumper which, as studies show, is more dangerous to pedestrians than a lower one" or something, you've decided to try and argue that the rise of and increasing size of SUVs is fine. A proposition which has little to no evidence in its favour and quite a lot against.

----
* Because it's all about you

 

[maomao]

Is there actually any evidence that SUVs from the past decade are more dangerous for pedestrians and cyclists? They should in theory be safer.

The problem is usually the driver driving like a dangerous cunt surely.

Well I've basically given up cycling because the width of modern cars leaves me not enough room to cycle comfortably so that's safer.

 

[platinumsage]

You presented evidence which you thought showed SUVs aren't more dangerous than other cars. I put your evidence in context and pointed out it doesn't show that. No contortions were required to do so. You have been shown multiple studies showing SUVs to be more dangerous, you've been rejecting them because you'd like your own motor to be an exception.

Which it might be, who knows, but for some reason rather than go down the path of saying, eg. "my car hasn't got a raised bumper which, as studies show, is more dangerous to pedestrians than a lower one" or something, you've decided to try and argue that the rise of and increasing size of SUVs is fine. A proposition which has little to no evidence in its favour and quite a lot against.

Nope that's not what I did, or what you did.

When you have one single study showing that SUVs in the UK are more dangerous than the average car in the UK, feel free to tag me so I am alerted to it. Meanwhile I'm not interested in Americans and their 13-hour intoxicated interstate drives in non-MOTed monster trucks or whatever.

I mean if SUVs in the UK are killing 8 times more children than other car types, you'd have thought it wouldn't be too hard to produce some actual evidence of what has happened, rather than resorting to conjecture about bumper height or whatever.

 

[Rob Ray]

Nope that's not what I did, or what you did.

I'm not terribly interested in more pantomime lines.

When you have one single study showing that SUVs in the UK are more dangerous than the average car in the UK, feel free to tag me so I am alerted to it. Meanwhile I'm not interested in Americans and their 13-hour intoxicated interstate drives in non-MOTed monster trucks or whatever.

I mean if SUVs in the UK are killing 8 times more children than other car types, you'd have thought it wouldn't be too hard to produce some actual evidence of what has happened, rather than resorting to conjecture about bumper height or whatever.

The US studies showcase specific aspects like what raised bumpers do. Weight vs damage has been known about since the 1950s. None of these stats are irrelevant to the UK market and as has repeatedly been brought up, the biggest issue is the rising trend for weight and size. UK stats aren't as bad as in the US yet, but allowing SUVs to become the de facto norm will make them so.

I appreciate such considerations sail over your head because for you this whole thing is merely about justifying your own car. Actually, if we give you a little sash or something saying "I'm not like other SUV drivers" will that do you?

 

[platinumsage]

The US studies showcase specific aspects like what raised bumpers do. Weight vs damage has been known about since the 1950s. None of these stats are irrelevant to the UK market and as has repeatedly been brought up, the biggest issue is the rising trend for weight and size. UK stats aren't as bad as in the US yet, but allowing SUVs to become the de facto norm will make them so.

How do you know "UK stats aren't as bad as in the US yet" - where are the stats that allow you to conclude that?

Theory about bumpers, height and weight is meaningless, because there are a lots of factors involved. It's a bit like saying acrylamide causes cancer, coffee has acrylamide in it therefore coffee causes cancer, when actual real-world studies show coffee reduces cancer risk.

As I keep saying, if SUVs are killing 8 times as many children, and SUV numbers have exploded over the last ten or twenty years, it shouldn't be hard to locate some actual statistics on all those deaths.

 

[Serge Forward]

He sounds like a very sensible chap.

Far more responsible than me

 

[Pickman's model]

Don't thank me too soon - the leasing company are collecting my small Volvo SUV at the end of the month and if Nissan haven't got their act together with my order I might end up in a large CO2-guzzling estate car for a while! I'm sure that would be totally cool with everyone here, as it wouldn't be a SUV, but I'm pretty sure it's child-killing abilities due to lack of pedestrian-detection would be massive.

what sports do you do which led you to drive a sports utility vehicle?

 

[platinumsage]

what sports do you do which led you to drive a sports utility vehicle?

Jogging and darts.

 

[Pickman's model]

Jogging and darts.

jogging is definitely not a sport and many people would disagree that darts is one either.

 

[Rob Ray]

How do you know "UK stats aren't as bad as in the US yet" - where are the stats that allow you to conclude that?

You've been shown stats showing how bad it's getting in the US, and as you've pointed out ad nauseam, the stats aren't as bad here. What you do, right, is put them next to each other.

Theory about bumpers, height and weight is meaningless, because there are a lots of factors involved.

Grand, so you'll be fine if I hit you with a 10kg sledgehammer because we've not demonstrated that it'll do you more damage than a 2kg hammer. Fucksake this is just pathetic.

As I keep saying, if SUVs are killing 8 times as many children, and SUV numbers have exploded over the last ten or twenty years, it shouldn't be hard to locate some actual statistics on all those deaths.

We did show that SUVs cause more deaths. You didn't like them because the studies were undertaken in the US.

Edit: I think I'm going to give up at this stage, as this is just going round in circles. Let me know if you want that sash.

 

[liquidindian]

what sports do you do which led you to drive a sports utility vehicle?

Post-hoc rationalisation (freestyle).

 

[platinumsage]

You've been shown stats showing how bad it's getting in the US, and as you've pointed out ad nauseam, the stats aren't as bad here. What you do, right, is put them next to each other.

No, I pointed out that the fundamentals are entirely different here. If the stats are the same where's the evidence. As I keep saying, if SUVs are killing 8 times as many children, and SUV numbers have exploded over the last ten or twenty years, it shouldn't be hard to locate some actual statistics on all those deaths.

Grand, so you'll be fine if I hit you with a 10kg sledgehammer because we've not demonstrated that it'll do you more damage than a 2kg hammer. Fucksake this is just pathetic.

How does this relate to what I wrote?

We did show that SUVs cause more deaths. You didn't like them because the studies were undertaken in the US.

Yes, in the US, where SUVs are different, roads are different. etc

It's a bit like saying kids shouldn't use water pistols because people drown in the ocean.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Far more responsible than me

The very next post after calling your son a sensible chap he's calling him a cunt...

July has just been confirmed as the world's hottest month in recorded history. And cunts want to drive around in fucking SUVs.

 

[editor]

The very next post after calling your son a sensible chap he's calling him a cunt...

I've got no problem with SUVs being driven in appropriate terrain. It's the SUVs in cities I'm railing against.

 

[editor]

How do you know "UK stats aren't as bad as in the US yet" - where are the stats that allow you to conclude that?

Theory about bumpers, height and weight is meaningless, because there are a lots of factors involved. It's a bit like saying acrylamide causes cancer, coffee has acrylamide in it therefore coffee causes cancer, when actual real-world studies show coffee reduces cancer risk.

As I keep saying, if SUVs are killing 8 times as many children, and SUV numbers have exploded over the last ten or twenty years, it shouldn't be hard to locate some actual statistics on all those deaths.

Here you go

New British crash data follows the lead of data released earlier this year in the United States of the increased risk to pedestrian safety by the large SUVs currently popular with automakers and American consumers.

"A new data crunch from British transport data experts shows there may be a similar lethality problem with SUVs in the U.K.," reports Carlton Reid.

Adam Reynolds, a transport policy advisor, worked with Robin Lovelace, a "Big Data" fellow at the Institute for Transport Studies at Leeds University in northern England, to produce the findings. One of the significant contributions of the research is a call for the U.K. Department for Transport (DfT) to publish the analysis and potentially remove dangerous cars from the road.

British Researchers Sound the Alarm About the Dangers of Large SUVs

These researchers call for dangerous, large-sized SUVs to be removed from the road.

www.planetizen.com

 

[editor]

Here's the problems with SUVs

The problems​

We urgently need to reduce the greenhouse emissions from road transport. The good news is that key markets like Europe are actually doing well in setting targets to reduce tailpipe emissions, and in many cases, hitting them early. However, SUVs could start to reverse this trend.

1. More material First, since SUVs are larger, they use more materials in their production than the car they are based on. A Volkswagen Golf, for instance, weighs around 1,330kg, while the Tiguan, a Golf-based SUV, is 1,534kg. That extra 200kg of metal, plastic and rubber – the weight of several people – all uses more raw materials and more energy to be produced.

2. Worse fuel economy The extra weight also means they don’t achieve the same fuel economy as a normal car, because the engine has to work harder to get the car moving. SUVs also tend to be further off the ground (a higher “ride height”). That makes them less aerodynamic and means worse fuel economy when travelling at speed.

3. Risk of rolling The fact the mass of the vehicle is higher off the ground also gives SUVs a higher centre of gravity, which increases the risk of a roll-over in an accident. A study in the US showed that SUVs have an 11 times higher risk of rolling over in an accident and children in vehicles that roll-over have a two times higher risk of dying in that accident.

4. Pedestrians in peril Back to the weight. Many owners may assume that the larger SUV is safer, yet US vehicle safety agency NHTSA observed that decreasing the weight of SUVs would reduce the seriousness of accidents by between 0.3% and 1.3%. This is a more difficult thing to quantify than the effect on fuel economy, and conversely crash safety equipment usually adds weight too, but drivers should not assume an SUV is safer by virtue of its increased weight.




Blindspots and high bonnets make SUVs particularly dangerous for pedestrians. Indeed, a recent study in the journal Economics of Transportation concluded that replacing the US’s growth in SUVs with regular cars over the past two decades “would have averted 1,100 pedestrian deaths”. The author also found “no evidence that the shift towards larger vehicles improved aggregate motorist safety”. Another smaller study in the US in 2020 showed that SUVs cause more serious injuries and deaths when they strike pedestrians, especially over 20mph.

Four reasons SUVs are less safe and worse for the environment than a regular car

The controversial cars are under attack.

theconversation.com

 

[Winot]

Well I've basically given up cycling because the width of modern cars leaves me not enough room to cycle comfortably so that's safer.

My MIL is the same.

 

[platinumsage]

Here you go

Er... that's about engine size: "SUVs are not specifically pinpointed in crash data but, says Reynolds, 'it is clear that the cars with 1.8-liter to 2-liter engines have a higher fatality rate, 2% vs. 1.4%, and this is likely to be speed- and size-related.'"

Even if you go with their argument that engine size is a proxy for SUVness, which I think is nonsense, they are still only claiming there is a doubling of risk, not an eight-fold increase.

 

[editor]

Er... that's about engine size: "SUVs are not specifically pinpointed in crash data but, says Reynolds, 'it is clear that the cars with 1.8-liter to 2-liter engines have a higher fatality rate, 2% vs. 1.4%, and this is likely to be speed- and size-related.'"

Even if you go with their argument that engine size is a proxy for SUVness, which I think is nonsense, they are still only claiming there is a doubling of risk, not an eight-fold increase.

So are you arguing that SUVs bring absolutely zero increase in fatalities in accidents over regular cars?
Can't wait to see your research for that.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I've got no problem with SUVs being driven in appropriate terrain. It's the SUVs in cities I'm railing against.

Your post where you’ve called SUV drivers cunts made no mention of cities at all, it was 100% on the effects of their emissions on the climate crisis, emissions that are as bad for the climate in Canada as Camberwell.

 

[platinumsage]

So are you arguing that SUVs bring absolutely zero increase in fatalities in accidents over regular cars?
Can't wait to see your research for that.

No I'm simply asking for evidence that SUVs, as they exist in the UK e.g. much smaller and newer as a group than US SUVs, are more dangerous than other cars in the UK.

The sabotagers claimed they're 8x more deadly, citing a US study, but failing to account for the fact that on every metric that matters, from average SUV size to roundabouts vs cross-roads, the UK would see a reduction in risk compared to the US.

I surmise that they may not bring any increase in fatalities at all, but I'd like to see some evidence.

 

[platinumsage]

I've got no problem with SUVs being driven in appropriate terrain. It's the SUVs in cities I'm railing against.

How do they get to and from appropriate terrain? Are they to be ferried around on flat-bed trucks?

 

[editor]

Your post where you’ve called SUV drivers cunts made no mention of cities at all, it was 100% on the effects of their emissions on the climate crisis, emissions that are as bad for the climate in Canada as Camberwell.

Sorry. I foolishly assumed you may have been following this thread.

Just a few posts before:

SUVs make up more than 40% of new cars sold in the UK – while fully electric vehicles account for less than 2%

My answer was that I couldn't tell you because there's too much variation in what people think. I'm no more omniscient than you are. You could tell me what you think.

www.urban75.net

 

[editor]

How do they get to and from appropriate terrain? Are they to be ferried around on flat-bed trucks?

This is getting utterly desperate now.