Spying on Activists: Why no Double Agents?

[Greebo]

It's only Ddraig ffs. It's come to a pretty pass when a man can't take the piss out of Ddraig when he feels the need.

Sweetie, this is getting old. It might almost (only almost) be funny, if not for you having the gall to call yourself a man.

Anyway, let's leave the sad troll to burble away to himself for a while. <snip>

Talking about yourself? Your wish is my command.

 

[phildwyer]

It might almost (only almost) be funny

It is funny, and you know it.

But let's not over-egg the pudding here. Enough is enough. I truly will stick to the topic from now on, and everyone else should do the same please.

 

[Corax]

Don't be so silly. No-one's going to "gleefully jump in" to point out how many people hate you.

No one's going to "gleefully jump in" because everyone's sick and tired of your repetitive schtick, and have no desire to waste their time engaging with it.

 

[ddraig]

Don't be so silly. No-one's going to "gleefully jump in" to point out how many people hate you. No-one here is out to get you. No-one even wants to see you carry on making a fool of yourself. We're all on your side here.

But honestly Ddraig? You should really leave this now. You're only making matters worse.

this is making me laugh and prolonging my work day!
even though you think you are very clever, most posters including me even can see where you are going with this thread.
obviously you used to waste a lot of time here as a sad lonely so called academic but don't you have some kind of life now?

 

[ddraig]

and what Rax said much shorter and better!

 

[Greebo]

<snip> I truly will stick to the topic from now on, and everyone else should do the same please.

Please do.

 

[Pickman's model]

look at it go through the motions!! look at it

look at the shit phildwyer's posted on this thread: clear evidence he's been going through the motions.

 

[Corax]

And now he's stalking other threads to get a dig in at posters elsewhere.

 

[phildwyer]

And now he's stalking other threads to get a dig in at posters elsewhere.

You're the only stalker here. You haven't made a single constructive contribution to this thread. Everything you've posted here has been disruption or abuse.

So why are you here?

 

[likesfish]

I dont really think theres a bunch of serious anarchists intent on violent mayhem

 

[phildwyer]

I dont really think theres a bunch of serious anarchists intent on violent mayhem

O rly?

 

[likesfish]

Nice stickers and mottos
Actually number of rich people turned into tasty snacks for the working class zero

Not exactly a massive threat no matter how much noise they make.

 

[Corax]

So why are you here?

Because my handler expects me to keep up a presence on these boards.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I dont really think theres a bunch of serious anarchists intent on violent mayhem

I believe in very specific, carefully considered acts of violence as part of a clear strategy. If it's violent mayhem you're after then the current world order should provide you with more than enough.

 

[free spirit]

At the time Kennedy was finally exposed I had taken an extended leave of absence from activism, not least because it had left me homeless and penniless, so I don't know the ins and outs of what happened or who was involved. But Mark Stone is still an open wound in these parts, you just don't mention the subject around those who were close to him, still less ask questions about it. Most if not all of them have effectively retired from the scene now anyway.

I did the same after Gleneagles. Lost my phone up there (suspect it ended up in one of the coppers pockets tbh), went straight from about 14 days in a field, the last 7 with constant helicopters overhead 24 hours a day to drive the length of the country to do 5 days at Glade festival, then eventually landed back in Newcastle to find my tenancy had run out, I was homeless and penniless, and had a week to pull a major sub contract work project together.

Was pretty fucked off with some stuff that went on up there as well, but in hindsight I probably should have talked it through with those involved afterwards rather than walking away, as it was a high stress, no sleep situation.

 

[phildwyer]

Nice stickers and mottos
Actually number of rich people turned into tasty snacks for the working class zero

Not exactly a massive threat no matter how much noise they make.

Not at the moment. But as history shows, that can change very, very quickly.

The people who run these groups (some of them anyway) know their Nechayev and Bakunin, their Lenin and sometimes even their Robespierre. They know that capitalism is always subject to periodic crises, and that in such a crisis a tiny but highly-organized group of dedicated people stand a reasonable chance of seizing power, provided they're ruthless and remorseless enough.

It's happened before, many times.

 

[Onket]

Onket you haven't sunk that low that you'll agree with dwyer now have you?

I agree with posts I agree with, doesn't matter who has written them.

You should try it.

Do you ask everyone about posts that they've 'liked'? Or just me? Seems to be becoming a bit of a habit.

 

[Onket]

you get a like from snidey onket

Can you manage to explain this yet? I know you couldn't manage it last time but you've had a bit longer to think about it now.....

 

[Greebo]

<snip> as history shows, that can change very, very quickly. <snip>

Argh! It's the historical dialectic.

 

[Greebo]

Not at the moment. But as history shows, that can change very, very quickly.

The people who run these groups (some of them anyway) know their Nechayev and Bakunin, their Lenin and sometimes even their Robespierre. They know that capitalism is always subject to periodic crises, and that in such a crisis a tiny but highly-organized group of dedicated people stand a reasonable chance of seizing power, provided they're ruthless and remorseless enough. <snip>

If, as you say, some of the people running groups of political activists know what has repeatedly happened in the past, they are also likely to know what happened to those people. Some died for their cause, some died peacefully, others were killed by almost the same people whom they'd once inspired and led. There's a very fine line between the latter two, once your cause has taken on a life of its own.

The other thing which may hold them back from seizing power, forcibly turning spies etc isn't so much niceness as the same refusal to compromise the core personal values which led them to become activists in the first place.

 

[phildwyer]

If, as you say, some of the people running groups of political activists know what has repeatedly happened in the past, they are also likely to know what happened to those people. Some died for their cause, some died peacefully, others were killed by almost the same people whom they'd once inspired and led. There's a very fine line between the latter two, once your cause has taken on a life of its own.

Of course. Revolutions inevitably devour their children first. And yes, all revolutionaries know that. But they evidently don't care.

Why they don't care is an interesting question. Some of them are doubtless nutters or desperate types, tired of life and with nothing to lose. Others possibly think that things might go differently next time. Still others presumably see themselves as Stalin. And there are also many genuine idealists, willing to sacrifice their lives for the good of humanity.

The other thing which may hold them back from seizing power, forcibly turning spies etc isn't so much niceness as the same refusal to compromise the core personal values which led them to become activists in the first place.

In some cases yes--the failures. But those who succeed in leading a revolution are invariably psychopaths--Lenin, Hitler, Robespierre etc. You pretty much have to be.

 

[HST]

Hitler didn't lead a revolution. He gained power democratically then consolidated that power.
Lenin didn't lead a revolution. He and the Bolsheviks seized control after the revolution by eliminating rival groups which were, admittedly, less ruthless and less tightly organised.
I've no problem with them being described as psychopaths.

 

[phildwyer]

Hitler didn't lead a revolution. He gained power democratically then consolidated that power.

Yes, and he consolidated it by killing, first of all, his oldest friends and political allies. And then by killing all his enemies. And then by forbidding any more elections. So it wasn't exactly your conventional democratic election-based transfer of power.

Lenin didn't lead a revolution. He and the Bolsheviks seized control after the revolution by eliminating rival groups which were, admittedly, less ruthless and less tightly organised.

Agreed. Indeed it was only the ruthless and remorseless nature of the Bolsheviks that gave them the advantage over their many revolutionary rivals.

I've no problem with them being described as psychopaths.

If they weren't psychopaths, the word has no meaning.

 

[likesfish]

There are violent people hanging round the activist scene but I doubt they are planning acts of violence which rather limits the usefulness of an agent.
Stone and the ilk stopped no demos or did anthing useful apart from provide " intelligence" that could be achieved without all the tinker tailor spy bollocks

Dodgy behaviour and a massive waste of time and resources.

 

[dylanredefined]

Not at the moment. But as history shows, that can change very, very quickly.

The people who run these groups (some of them anyway) know their Nechayev and Bakunin, their Lenin and sometimes even their Robespierre. They know that capitalism is always subject to periodic crises, and that in such a crisis a tiny but highly-organized group of dedicated people stand a reasonable chance of seizing power, provided they're ruthless and remorseless enough.

It's happened before, many times.

Do they know how to make a decent ied though? Been ready to seize the moment is not something anyone should worry about. Being willing to create the moment is a bit worrying. Being able,willing and have the means to create the crisis needs stamping on.

 

[phildwyer]

There are violent people hanging round the activist scene but I doubt they are planning acts of violence which rather limits the usefulness of an agent.
Stone and the ilk stopped no demos or did anthing useful apart from provide " intelligence" that could be achieved without all the tinker tailor spy bollocks

Dodgy behaviour and a massive waste of time and resources.

The state's never going to stop spying on activists though. If nothing else it provides jobs for the boys. And if they have embedded moles in activist organizations, as no doubt they have, they can activate them any time it seems appropriate, e.g. as provocateurs in time of crisis etc.

As for corporate spies, they will exist as long as anti-capitalists exist--which means as long as capitalism exists.

 

[phildwyer]

Do they know how to make a decent ied though?

Some of them do.

 

[dylanredefined]

Some of them do.

And hopefully they have proper spooks watching them not some wannabe cop.

 

[phildwyer]

And hopefully they have proper spooks watching them not some wannabe cop.

No doubt about it.