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Spying on Activists: Why no Double Agents?

Mark Kennedy/Stone would have been well up for it, judging by his recent comments.

So I don't know. Does anyone?

Kennedy is a duplicitous little shit who is only interested in himself. His regrets about his undercover role being exposed were about him no longer being able to live it up in the activist scene with the taxpayer footing the considerable bill.
He was whoring himself out to private security firms to carry on spying on his mates and lover after the cops withdrew him from his undercover role - then blubbing to the media about how badly he'd been treated.
 
I knew Kennedy and I know the people who exposed him. It's fair to say they weren't in a position to think of the possible strategic advatnages of the situation at the time, which is understandable in the crcumstances.

e2a: Kennedy did actually offer to switch sides at one point, but that was after he'd been exposed so it wouldn't really have been a double agent thing.
This has been bugging me for years now, so I'm just going to spit it out as I think the record needs to be set straight a bit on Kennedy, and the narrative that he managed to operate undetected for a decade until he was finally exposed in 2010.

Kennedy was first sussed out in 2005 before the stirling G8 protests, and AFAIK a significant portion of Dissent's main organisers were aware of these strong well founded suspicions. The problem being that these were based on the knowledge that one person among a small group of people was undercover, and only if you were sure that none of the others could be would you then be able to conclude by a process of elimination that Kennedy was undercover.

I was told at the time that this had been raised with members of his affinity group who defended him and made counter allegations that it must have been someone else, meaning that the whole thing was dropped as it wasn't possible to prove either way and was in danger of causing a big split at a crucial time.

He was kept away from key decision making and generally frozen out of anything other than driving minibuses as far as possible, and he was also being fed some false information aimed at ensuring the police kept their forces spread across Edinburgh, and Glasgow rather than concentrating them all on Gleneagles / Stirling.

It's not a coincidence that the only fight on site during the entire time involved him vs one of those who basically knew he was undercover plod, though I didn't witness exactly what was said to kick it off.

Fuck knows what went on afterwards, I walked away myself and lost touch with the others who'd sussed him, but I suspect that the 3 (or more?) undercovers between them were able to use their combined influence to effectively squeeze out those who'd had suspicions about him, and build their own powerbase within the movement. After Stirling most of those heavily involved were completely fucked financially and emotionally*, so most would have needed to withdraw a bit to sort ourselves out - not something that undercover plod need to concern themselves with as they are completely financially sorted and can jut go at it full time while the rest were trying to sort themselves out, or being too distracted by the efforts to set up social centres in their own areas to really concern themselves too much with what was happening in other areas... plus a feeling of not sticking their nose where it's not wanted, and a fair amount of mud also being flung in their direction (the best defence to an accusation of being a tout apparently being to attack your accusers).

Somewhere along the lines it seemed that most of those who were in the groups who'd directly been infiltrated ended up moving on to running the climate camps outside of Dissent, and those who'd had there suspicions of Kennedy were largely frozen out / decided not to get involved, so those suspicions just got forgotten about. I must admit that I'd just assumed that someone would have sorted it out if we'd been right, so didn't have the confidence to actually do something about it - also as I wasn't involved, I didn't realise he was still active, I'd thought he would have been pulled out after pretty much having his cover blown at Stirling.

The last couple of paragraphs are mostly speculation, but is my attempt at explaining how it was that we went from a situation where several people had identified Stone as undercover plod and were using this against the police to some extent into a situation where he was able to continue and extend his undercover work for another 5 years.

I don't know the specifics of exactly who was told what, but I'm pretty sure that at least some of those who were close to him in 20005 were warned about him, but didn't heed the warning and defended him instead. I might be wrong, but suspect that some of those who later exposed him probably had suspicions that stretched back to 2005 and been at least vaguely aware of the allegations against him from that point

so that's my alternative narrative, I've hinted at it several times before, but need to get it on the record while I can still actually remember it. I'm sure this will piss some people off and maybe I'll be accused of victim blaming again or something, I just think that if we don't know about the history then we're more likely to be condemned to repeat the mistakes again in future. Plus it narks me that the official narrative makes it look as if Kennedy pulled the wool over the eyes of the entire movement for a decade, when that's just not true.

Mistakes were made, and we should have had the courage of our convictions and properly exposed him back in 2005 - not just him actually, one of my mates had film footage of 3 undercovers who'd been targetting the free party scene in the run up to the G8, so we might have been able to expose 3 of them back then, though the footage was pretty dark.
 
ps at the time I wasn't really sure who or what to believe, or entirely sure who it was that had been pointed out to me as it was all pretty hectic. It was only really thinking back to that time when this all came out that the memories of the conversations came back to me and I realised that the warnings back then had been right.
 
This has been bugging me for years now, so I'm just going to spit it out as I think the record needs to be set straight a bit on Kennedy...

This is not an angle I've heard before, but it's plausible. The trouble I suppose is how do you move from idle speculation to concrete evidence, without spreading nasty rumours about a potentially innocent person and without resorting to witch hunt tactics. IIRC the key piece of evidence against Kennedy was stumbled upon more or less by accident, or at least it was blind luck that he was stupid enough to have such evidence lying around. Without that evidence I don't know how any kind of move could have been made agaisnt Kennedy, particularly if there were other undercovers muddying the waters.

And it's only natural to defend your mates. It's blood curdling to think of someone you know and trust being capable of that kind of deception. If those with suspicions managed to freeze him out to some extent then that might have been the best they could achieve without potentially doing a lot more harm than good.

I'll pick you up on one point though, there was one other fight at Gleneagles. It involved an individual who decided to start playing the bagpipes in the middle of camp at about midnight the day before everyone was due to head off on their actions.
 
At the time Kennedy was finally exposed I had taken an extended leave of absence from activism, not least because it had left me homeless and penniless, so I don't know the ins and outs of what happened or who was involved. But Mark Stone is still an open wound in these parts, you just don't mention the subject around those who were close to him, still less ask questions about it. Most if not all of them have effectively retired from the scene now anyway.
 
It's interesting to see that after my idea of feeding a suspected tout false information was shot down in flames, it turns out that may be exactly what happened in Mark Kennedy's case.

As well as misleading the police of course, it could help you confirm your suspicions about a possible undercover plod. If your target is innocent, there's no real harm done and they don't even need to find out they were under suspicion.
 
Well if "activist" groups were highly disciplined organised and run by a sufficently tight leadership:facepalm:
Possibly but then if they were like that some bloke turning up with a handy minibus plus useful gear wouldnt get very far.
The fact the covert officers were around so long for so little gain is embarrassing. If your planning violent protests or think shadowing military or nuclear movements is a good idea then release the covert assets of the state.
But annoying protesters do not require long term covert agents to be run.
 
This has been bugging me for years now, so I'm just going to spit it out as I think the record needs to be set straight a bit on Kennedy, and the narrative that he managed to operate undetected for a decade until he was finally exposed in 2010.

Kennedy was first sussed out in 2005 before the stirling G8 protests, and AFAIK a significant portion of Dissent's main organisers were aware of these strong well founded suspicions. The problem being that these were based on the knowledge that one person among a small group of people was undercover, and only if you were sure that none of the others could be would you then be able to conclude by a process of elimination that Kennedy was undercover.

I was told at the time that this had been raised with members of his affinity group who defended him and made counter allegations that it must have been someone else, meaning that the whole thing was dropped as it wasn't possible to prove either way and was in danger of causing a big split at a crucial time.

He was kept away from key decision making and generally frozen out of anything other than driving minibuses as far as possible, and he was also being fed some false information aimed at ensuring the police kept their forces spread across Edinburgh, and Glasgow rather than concentrating them all on Gleneagles / Stirling.

It's not a coincidence that the only fight on site during the entire time involved him vs one of those who basically knew he was undercover plod, though I didn't witness exactly what was said to kick it off.

Fuck knows what went on afterwards, I walked away myself and lost touch with the others who'd sussed him, but I suspect that the 3 (or more?) undercovers between them were able to use their combined influence to effectively squeeze out those who'd had suspicions about him, and build their own powerbase within the movement. After Stirling most of those heavily involved were completely fucked financially and emotionally*, so most would have needed to withdraw a bit to sort ourselves out - not something that undercover plod need to concern themselves with as they are completely financially sorted and can jut go at it full time while the rest were trying to sort themselves out, or being too distracted by the efforts to set up social centres in their own areas to really concern themselves too much with what was happening in other areas... plus a feeling of not sticking their nose where it's not wanted, and a fair amount of mud also being flung in their direction (the best defence to an accusation of being a tout apparently being to attack your accusers).

Somewhere along the lines it seemed that most of those who were in the groups who'd directly been infiltrated ended up moving on to running the climate camps outside of Dissent, and those who'd had there suspicions of Kennedy were largely frozen out / decided not to get involved, so those suspicions just got forgotten about. I must admit that I'd just assumed that someone would have sorted it out if we'd been right, so didn't have the confidence to actually do something about it - also as I wasn't involved, I didn't realise he was still active, I'd thought he would have been pulled out after pretty much having his cover blown at Stirling.

The last couple of paragraphs are mostly speculation, but is my attempt at explaining how it was that we went from a situation where several people had identified Stone as undercover plod and were using this against the police to some extent into a situation where he was able to continue and extend his undercover work for another 5 years.

I don't know the specifics of exactly who was told what, but I'm pretty sure that at least some of those who were close to him in 20005 were warned about him, but didn't heed the warning and defended him instead. I might be wrong, but suspect that some of those who later exposed him probably had suspicions that stretched back to 2005 and been at least vaguely aware of the allegations against him from that point

so that's my alternative narrative, I've hinted at it several times before, but need to get it on the record while I can still actually remember it. I'm sure this will piss some people off and maybe I'll be accused of victim blaming again or something, I just think that if we don't know about the history then we're more likely to be condemned to repeat the mistakes again in future. Plus it narks me that the official narrative makes it look as if Kennedy pulled the wool over the eyes of the entire movement for a decade, when that's just not true.

Mistakes were made, and we should have had the courage of our convictions and properly exposed him back in 2005 - not just him actually, one of my mates had film footage of 3 undercovers who'd been targetting the free party scene in the run up to the G8, so we might have been able to expose 3 of them back then, though the footage was pretty dark.

That's really interesting, thanks for posting.

Sounds to me like the answer to my question, in this case at least, was that there were just too many undercovers involved. One might (if one were a bastard) be able to intimidate one into switching sides, but not three.
 
First of all, your agent goes back to his principals and says "these people are threatening my family", and his principals, if they have any interest in their spy continuing to operate as such, take the necessary steps and instruct him to say "Dunno what you're on about, guv"; either that or they decide that their man is blown and pull him out.

I assume you don't have kids then?

Because, faced with the choice between the slightest chance of harm coming to their child and giving Ronald McDonald the wrong date for a demo, 100% of parents would choose the latter.

So it can't be that hard to turn a single individual. Remember that we're not necessarily talking about cops here--I admit that would be more difficult, although Kennedy/Stone apparently did offer to switch sides. But some recent Oxbridge grad working for Mickey D's and suddenly finds himself in over his head? No problem, surely?

Now, I'm very glad that activist groups don't go in for this sort of thing--it's what makes us better than them etc. But I'm surprised. I've no doubt that many such groups include some genuine psychos who would be more than willing--Pickman's Model for example has made it abundantly clear that he has no regard whatsoever for human life, and claims that he would kill a man as easily as he would squash a gnat.

Of course Pickman's is a well-known bullshitter. But I bet there are activists who are genuine hardmen, and so it surprises me that they don't go in for hardman tactics.
 
I assume you don't have kids then?

Because, faced with the choice between the slightest chance of harm coming to their child and giving Ronald McDonald the wrong date for a demo, 100% of parents would choose the latter.
If that were actually true to the extent you're claiming, any parent would be completely vulnerable at any time to the kind of blackmail you're suggesting.

You're right that I am not a parent. However, I've known a few - I believe I also own a couple, somewhere - and I think I can say with some certainty that they usually don't turn into snivelling compliant wrecks at the first hint of a threat to their beloved offspring - quite the contrary, in fact.
 
If that were actually true to the extent you're claiming, any parent would be completely vulnerable at any time to the kind of blackmail you're suggesting.

You're right that I am not a parent. However, I've known a few - I believe I also own a couple, somewhere - and I think I can say with some certainty that they usually don't turn into snivelling compliant wrecks at the first hint of a threat to their beloved offspring - quite the contrary, in fact.

It depends how credible the threat is, obviously.

But yes, any parent at any time is indeed vulnerable to this kind of blackmail. And to a lot of other things as well. As Francis Bacon said, to have a child is to give a hostage to fortune.
 
usually don't bother with you sad tired shite so don't give it "usual" and use the line on me that you use on others constantly
you are a joke, goodbye
 
usually don't bother with you sad tired shite so don't give it "usual" and use the line on me that you use on others constantly
you are a joke, goodbye

Leave the thread, Ddraig. Now. Go on, piss off, you're not wanted here. And don't come back.
 
I've no doubt that many such groups include some genuine psychos who would be more than willing--Pickman's Model for example has made it abundantly clear that he has no regard whatsoever for human life, and claims that he would kill a man as easily as he would squash a gnat.

Of course Pickman's is a well-known bullshitter. But I bet there are activists who are genuine hardmen, and so it surprises me that they don't go in for hardman tactics.
perhaps you could point to the post where i claim i would kill a man as easily as squash a gnat.

or perhaps you could apologise for posting yet another lie.
 
That's really interesting, thanks for posting.

Sounds to me like the answer to my question, in this case at least, was that there were just too many undercovers involved. One might (if one were a bastard) be able to intimidate one into switching sides, but not three.
Intimidate in what way, though? They tell their handler they've been rumbled and simply disappear. Far more elegant solution to feed a suspected agent false information. Best way to confirm your suspicion, too, I would think.
 
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