Spying on Activists: Why no Double Agents?

[phildwyer]

awww are you losing? again
nevermind
sure there is someone else you can attempt to browbeat with your self styled supposed superior intellect and debating skills

I'm not going to engage with this troll any more, and I suggest that others ignore him too. All he does here is ramble from thread to thread, sowing disruption and ruining discussion. What an inadequate wretch he is.

 

[phildwyer]

Intimidate in what way, though? They tell their handler they've been rumbled and simply disappear.

If they have three kids at school? If their real-life identity is known? If they believe the threat to their kids is credible?

They wouldn't disappear. They'd co-operate.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

I'm not necessarily talking about coppers (although quite frankly the cops they send to spy on UK activists look to me like a bunch of untrained clowns who wouldn't stand up to 2 seconds of pressure).

But a corporate spy--they kind who work for McDonalds and Microsoft, those C21 guys etc--they don't have state protection, nor do they feel loyalty to their employers. And I bet many of them hate what they do and would be quite happy to fight for the good guys for a while.

I suspect there's as many "true believers" in what they're doing as there are among the activists. The right-wing has encouraged this mind-set that sees corporations and billionaires are the saviors of mankind. The cops I know when I was working in a cop shop would have been quite happy to go spy on some union strikers or other activists.

 

[phildwyer]

where does that say "i would kill a man as easily as squash a gnat"?

It says that you would kill a man you believed to be an informer.

That's plenty despicable enough. The degree of difficulty you might experience in doing so does not concern me.

 

[phildwyer]

I suspect there's as many "true believers" in what they're doing as there are among the activists. The right-wing has encouraged this mind-set that sees corporations and billionaires are the saviors of mankind. The cops I know when I was working in a cop shop would have been quite happy to go spy on some union strikers or other activists.

Cops, sure. Some 23 year-old poshboy who's just landed an exciting job working for McDonald's? I really can't see them having much loyalty to their employer.

 

[phildwyer]

The trouble I suppose is how do you move from idle speculation to concrete evidence, without spreading nasty rumours about a potentially innocent person and without resorting to witch hunt tactics.

Surely that's obvious?

You give them a piece of false but valuable-sounding information and see if the cops act on it. Do it twice to be sure.

Or am I missing something here?

 

[DrRingDing]

Cops, sure. Some 23 year-old poshboy who's just landed an exciting job working for McDonald's? I really can't see them having much loyalty to their employer.

What evidence do you have that private security firms employee, often, such young people?

I would make an educated guess they're made up of ex plod and the like.

 

[phildwyer]

What evidence do you have that private security firms employee, often, such young people?

I would make an educated guess they're made up of ex plod and the like.

You'd think so wouldn't you?

But I've looked into this a bit, and it seems that they usually recruit straight from university. And like most employers--but especially like spymasters--they go after Oxbridge graduates first.

Maybe it's to do with credibility--fresh-faced recent graduates being more likely to become real activists than grizzled 35 year-old ex-cops.

http://abc7chicago.com/archive/8418090/

http://www.inc.com/magazine/201302/george-chidi/confessions-of-a-corporate-spy.html

http://www.alternet.org/activism/corporate-espionage-against-progressive-nonprofits

 

[Pickman's model]

It says that you would kill a man you believed to be an informer.

That's plenty despicable enough. The degree of difficulty you might experience in doing so does not concern me.

nowhere on this thread have i said "kill an informer". nowhere on this thread have i said "human life is meaningless". nowhere on this thread have i said "i would kill a man as easily as a gnat". nothing i have said on this thread implies any of these things. you're grasping at straws and they won't support your weight.

 

[phildwyer]

nowhere on this thread have i said "kill an informer". nowhere on this thread have i said "human life is meaningless". nowhere on this thread have i said "i would kill a man as easily as a gnat". nothing i have said on this thread implies any of these things. you're grasping at straws and they won't support your weight.

That's really disingenuous, even by your standards. What does this mean then?

yeh and there's to my mind only one entirely effective way to deal with a tout

Because I think it means that you believe informers should be killed. And I believe that makes you a scumbag.

 

[Pickman's model]

That's really disingenuous, even by your standards. What does this mean then?



Because I think it means that you believe informers should be killed. And I believe that makes you a scumbag.

why not google 'best way to destroy an enemy'

now fuck off.

 

[DrRingDing]

You'd think so wouldn't you?

But I've looked into this a bit, and it seems that they usually recruit straight from university. And like most employers--but especially like spymasters--they go after Oxbridge graduates first.

Maybe it's to do with credibility--fresh-faced recent graduates being more likely to become real activists than grizzled 35 year-old ex-cops.

http://abc7chicago.com/archive/8418090/

http://www.inc.com/magazine/201302/george-chidi/confessions-of-a-corporate-spy.html

http://www.alternet.org/activism/corporate-espionage-against-progressive-nonprofits

This is all in the States. I'm talking about the UK.

 

[phildwyer]

This is all in the States. I'm talking about the UK.

Here you go then. As I say, I've been researching this, and the below seems to be typical:

"Five years ago, I helped to unmask a corporate spy. Climate activism was at its peak: the second ‘climate camp’ had spent a week at Heathrow the summer before, and many environmental groups had reported an upsurge in membership. Ken Tobias was one such new member. He came to his first Plane Stupid meeting at a pub in Russell Square in December 2007. Posh, eager, with a Palestinian keffiyeh around his neck, Ken was fresh out of Oxford and very keen."

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v35/n01/katrina-forrester/i-want-you-to-know-i-know-who-you-are

 

[likesfish]

The thing was most of the grounds stone and others were spying on were not a "who dares wins"style of hardcore anachrists intent on armed revolution now!which might have justified the efforts to break them.

But a bunch of protestors that picking up a copy of schnews hanging out here and goinging down the pub would get you all the intel you'd need
How to inflitrate climate camp turn up with edible food your in.
Once had some activist tell me that bucfp had to be seriously aware of state inflitrators at the time I was locking up the place I was in full TA uniform
It was offically not asubversive organisation never told anyone that they'd be heart broken

 

[phildwyer]

How to inflitrate climate camp turn up with edible food your in.

I literally did LOL at that. And since I'm in a library it wasn't the smartest move. Better get back to work for a bit...

 

[Pickman's model]

Here you go then. As I say, I've been researching this, and the below seems to be typical:

"Five years ago, I helped to unmask a corporate spy. Climate activism was at its peak: the second ‘climate camp’ had spent a week at Heathrow the summer before, and many environmental groups had reported an upsurge in membership. Ken Tobias was one such new member. He came to his first Plane Stupid meeting at a pub in Russell Square in December 2007. Posh, eager, with a Palestinian keffiyeh around his neck, Ken was fresh out of Oxford and very keen."

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v35/n01/katrina-forrester/i-want-you-to-know-i-know-who-you-are

so don't trust people who've been to oxbridge or people who have stupid jobs (eg p/t climber) or people with no back story and no family or who won't allow you to see where they work

 

[phildwyer]

so don't trust people who've been to oxbridge or people who have stupid jobs (eg p/t climber) or people with no back story and no family or who won't allow you to see where they work

That rules out 99% of current activists then.

Nice one genius.

 

[Pickman's model]

That rules out 99% of current activists then.

Nice one genius.

so no one wants to be your activist buddy? i'm not surprised.

 

[Greebo]

so don't trust people who've been to oxbridge or people who have stupid jobs (eg p/t climber) or people with no back story and no family or who won't allow you to see where they work

Trust begets trust. It wouldn't be impossible (or IMHO unreasonable) to sustain parallel identities on the internet, it's just that you'd better have a good reason to expect others to give all those checkable details to you while you (in general) give none of yours.

 

[ddraig]

Onket you haven't sunk that low that you'll agree with dwyer now have you?

 

[Corax]

2006.
Tony Scott.
Denzel Washington.

 

[phildwyer]

Onket you haven't sunk that low that you'll agree with dwyer now have you?

Against you more like.

Now I thought you were fucking off?

 

[Greebo]

Onket you haven't sunk that low that you'll agree with dwyer now have you?

Even a broken clock might show the right time once or twice in 24 hours. Decontamination may be needed.

<snip> Now I thought you were fucking off?

And I thought you were going to act nearer to your age instead of like a toddler. Better go, case agreements to do etc.

 

[phildwyer]

And I thought you were going to act nearer to your age instead of like a toddler. Better go, case agreements to do etc.

It's only Ddraig ffs. It's come to a pretty pass when a man can't take the piss out of Ddraig when he feels the need.

 

[ddraig]

Against you more like.

Now I thought you were fucking off?

i know he is against me but i didn't think he was sad enough to sully himself with you for that end!
you can hope and think i am fucking off if it puffs your chest for a few seconds but i am not and your bully bluster is balls

 

[phildwyer]

i know he is against me

Everyone's against you! Just go away. You're making it worse.

 

[ddraig]

It's only Ddraig ffs. It's come to a pretty pass when a man can't take the piss out of Ddraig when he feels the need.

Everyone's against you! Just go away. You're making it worse.

look at it go through the motions!! look at it

 

[ddraig]

Everyone's against you! Just go away. You're making it worse.

you get a like from snidey onket and you think you two count as everyone?

e2a yes i know there are a few more before anyone gleefully jumps in to point that out!

 

[phildwyer]

Anyway, let's leave the sad troll to burble away to himself for a while. I've been meaning to respond to this:

The thing was most of the grounds stone and others were spying on were not a "who dares wins"style of hardcore anachrists intent on armed revolution now!which might have justified the efforts to break them.

That's true, and I assume that's one major reason why we find so few double agents in the activist scene.

Presumably however, the "hardcore anarchists intent on revolution" are being spied on as well. Presumably much more than the cuddlies. And yet they don't do this sort of thing either. I reckon it just hasn't occurred to them, frankly.

 

[phildwyer]

e2a yes i know there are a few more before anyone gleefully jumps in to point that out!

Don't be so silly. No-one's going to "gleefully jump in" to point out how many people hate you. No-one here is out to get you. No-one even wants to see you carry on making a fool of yourself. We're all on your side here.

But honestly Ddraig? You should really leave this now. You're only making matters worse.