Yep, that was me, and so?
SPGB
- Thread starter Proper Tidy
- Start date
Yep, that was me, and so?
dylans
overlord of all acorns
No need to be so defensive DannyD.
Defensive, moi!
We will support those workers in Greece by doing our best to bring the class struggle to a conclusion.
What will you be doing?
Gravediggers
New Member
His wallpaper and textiles cost a bomb. Luckily I have a 4x6 ft of a print of his on my bed wall. This symbolic representation does help when I have a restless night.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
Proper Tidy
Arsed
Nah, just asking. Read your blog as it happens. Political differences aside, fair play for standing.
Gravediggers
New Member
Naturally, time, health and interest permitting. The last time I was down Speakers Corner was about 3 years ago.
Hi Dylans
You have the bare bones there, but let's put some flesh on 'em. I doubt it'll be everyone, but it will have to be an overwhelming majority large enough to overwhelm capitalism, and only through making use of the the ballot can we demonstrate not only to the opposition but also to ourselves that we have the power of the majority with us, that way we are not going to risk taking over prematurely. With workers legitimately in control of the state, the coercive arms of the state cannot be used against us and can be used against those that might try to subvert with violence the democratic decision.
This "you guys" bit has got us all wrong, as the old Kraut said "The emancipation of the working class has to be the work of the working class itself" All we do in WSM is offer information, analysis, a proposition, and a democratic organisation that does its best to prefigure the kind of democracy needed in Socialist society, that treats all its members as equals.
As for abandoning money, producing solely to meet needs and from each according to ability to each according to need, well it's in our interests surely? All the work/toil need to reproduce capitalism day to day requires a huge amount of social effort, we have to have banking, insurance, taxation, advertising, money lending, debt collecting, the law, police, prisons, armed forces, a military industrial complex, stock exchanges, pensions, charities, weights and measures, customs and excise, trading standards, independent financial advisers and on and on. All of this effort essential to the running of capitalism produces not one gram of usable wealth, no food, clothing or shelter, no medicine, education, art, music, dance sport, drama, no literature, all it does is reproduce capitalism. William Morris said in his day that it was more expensive to sell something than it was to make, I reckon today it's four times more expensive but that's me. Anyway what this means irrefutably is that we are so busy taking care of business, and a parasitic class we don't have the time to take care of ourselves.
It has to be like this, before we can have Socialism we have to have socialists, humans who have figured out who they are and know what they want. Humans who are prepared to shoulder the duties and responsibilities needed to bring about the new society, maintain and develop it.
Simply, if nobody works, nobody lives, if we all work well, everybody lives well. It aint astrophysics is it?
I've had to dash this off a bit quick, hope you get the gist.
It's weather permitting GD not me 'elf.
Thanks PT.
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
Sorry for being so harsh earlier, didn't agree with the way you put across stuff politically and don't think it did much for getting socialist ideas across to a wider audience but there was no need for some of the comments I made. If what you were saying is reflective of the SPGB I really don't get it though.
I agree with that.
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
So when 51% of the population are convinced by the case for socialism then the other 49% will just go 'ok then you've won, let's give it a go'. You're lucky that this sort of ahistorical gets a 'haha mood' in response.
Louis MacNeice
Sorry for being so harsh earlier, didn't agree with the way you put across stuff politically and don't think it did much for getting socialist ideas across to a wider audience but there was no need for some of the comments I made. If what you were saying is reflective of the SPGB I really don't get it though.
I agree with that.
Under the bridge.
"The chief advantage that would result from the establishment of Socialism is, undoubtedly, the fact that Socialism would relieve us from that sordid necessity of living for others which, in the present condition of things, presses so hardly upon almost everybody. In fact, scarcely any one at all escapes".
Oscar Wilde, Soul of man under Socialism.
The problem is that regulation of individuals will become dominated on bureaucratic power structures . Attempts to trade, harvest resources or partake in any meaningful economic activity will be restricted by a set of rules governing people. Either endless committees discussing everything whilst nothing is done or individuals seizing power under some collective authority for their own ends.
Gravediggers
New Member
Louis I do not know how to thank you enough for you have made my day in posting one of my favourite questions to which I will give my best effort.
What composes the majority at the ballot box and in a socialist society, seems to be the question you are asking? I doubt very much whether 51% of the vote is going to be a sufficient majority for socialists for they will not be making a fetish of the parliamentary process, but thinking ahead after the ballot has been counted.
There are two primary reasons for this: 1. It is easy to say you support socialism by placing an X on the spot, but its far harder to come out of the closet and actually do something of a positive nature to make socialism actually work in practice. 2. Has I explained earlier socialist will be looking for the least line of resistance and planning to make the transformation as smooth has possible. Part of this planning will consist of calculating the actual workforce required to produce the means of living, besides re-organising the redundant workforce who were previously involved in buying and selling into productive activity. A calculation will have to be made on the total workforce necessary to bring this revolutionary state of affairs about.
Once you have this figure then you will have a fair idea on what the majority will actually consist of. Being a democratic and not know what the conditions and circumstances will be at the transformation from capitalism to socialism the actual decision on whether there is a sufficient majority - to make socialism work in practice - will be made by the workers themselves. I'm sure they will make the right decision(s).
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
That's capitalism and capitalist law.
Those are the rules of state capitalism.
[/QUOTE]Either endless committees discussing everything whilst nothing is done or individuals seizing power under some collective authority for their own ends.[/QUOTE]
These are the committees for company boardrooms, parish meetings, council audit development committee consultation meetings all the way up to Parliament.
Business has already stolen power under its collective authority to "run the economy for the good of the nation".
Do you consider yourself a capitalist, moon23?
What is the means of living? It's not a static calculation as people indivdually have different needs and desires. How can you possibly say the number of workers needed?
How will workers themselves make decisions?
Gravediggers
New Member
If what you were saying is reflective of the SPGB I really don't get it though.
May I suggest you stay with this thread cos after 600+ posts its only now the questions and answers are starting to get really interesting and relative to how we see capitalism and socialism.
I consider myself a Liberal, and think that free trade and ability to enrich yourself through meaningfull economic activity is no bad thing. I do still think there should be some safety net and welfare system provided by the state.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
What an odd word to insert there. What do you mean by 'meaningful'? What are the conditions of meaning?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Is this a true meaningful approximation of your current condition?
My conditions of economic activity being meaningful is that somebody desires the product or service being produced. Meaningless activity might be producing something that no one wants because you have been told or made to produce it.
That's just how I define it.
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
I'm not sure how those beliefs will be served by the new government.
They will purposefully immiserate many millions to keep the few rich.
They will create man-months and man-months of meaningless bureaucratic and managerial work.
They will weaken and wear down the 'safety net', they will privatise swathes of the welfare system.
They don't care about your principles and your ideals.
As a Liberal with a capital 'L' - did you support the Liberals before the emergence of the SDP?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
That's demonstrates the limit of your horizon then - economic man in all his glory. If it doesn't sell it means nothing.
No it's a simplistic example of an economic transaction. I figured one of the first basis on which an economy would be founded is trade, so you would need some way to determine how you trade items.
Otherwise you could say that no one owns anything, in which case what is to stop the strongest person from taking everything for themselves?
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