SPGB

[Gravediggers]

From Wiki - perhaps not the most reliable of sources, admittedly.

I also notice Bridge Books, from my home town, have a book on yourselves. Any good? Got a few of thiers already, might look it up.

The wiki broad brush is OK. There have been only two books on the SPGB. Robert Barltrop wrote The Monument which contains some factual errors but provides a feeling on the characters in the SPGB at the time. If you come across a copy of this I would grab it because its no longer in print, and I do know there have been several enquiries on ebay.

The other one is by Dave Perrin entitled The Socialist Party of Great Britain: Politics, Economics and Britain's Oldest Socialist Party. This is the better one for understanding the party's position on many issues over the years. If you are interested in purchasing a copy it maybe cheaper to get it from 52 Clapham High St rather than the bookseller.

So anyway, what's your whole position on anti-racism and anti-fascism? Is it true that in a dictatorship your position would be to wait for the advent of parliamentary democracy rather than active resistance?

If I was to describe our position on racism and fascism I would be doing urban75 a disservice. We have been opposed to both and over the years have written many attacks and analysis on the subject. We have published two pamphlets on racism both out of print. More recently, we published a pamphlet which combined an attack and analysis on the concept of race and the human nature versus human behaviour arguments: Are we prisoners of our genes? This is available free online or can be purchased from 52 Clapham High St.

Dave Perrins' book has a chapter on Fascism, democracy and the Second World War. We haven't published a pamphlet on fascism that I know of, but whenever its ugly head emerges out of the shadows aka the BNP you will find an article in the Socialist Standard relating to the most recent events. We would dearly like to debate with the BNP so we have a vocal platform to destroy their pernicious drivel. We are quite aware that such a debate will stoke the ire and anger of the left but our attitude is that the battle for ideas can only be won by punching very large holes in their arguments both in print and by vocal opposition.

Our position for class struggle in a dictatorship is that the struggle for democracy is the top priority for the working class and for socialists. Our advice to socialists in such situations is to keep their heads down but to become involved if the opportunity arises, and they are clear that their involvement includes putting the socialist case.

 

[dylans]

On the Suffragettes

In their cry for "equality" do not their methods betray them? Every move on their part
is an appeal not to sex equality but to sex fetishism. Their tactics rely upon and appeal
to the worship of sex. They know that their sex gives them privileges before the
magistrate and protects them from the usual police brutality, and that any strong
measures against them would immediately raise a storm in their favour amongst the
sex worshippers. Hence their peculiar tactics, which have no other explanation. Let
anyone compare mentally the treatment that would be meted out to working men did
they pursue a similar policy to these Suffragettes

Wow

 

[Gravediggers]

I just think the SPGB are hopelessly utopian. As well as having absolutely nothing to say except abstract lectures on why human nature makes socialism possible. On wars and revolutions, strikes and battles, real struggles across the world they say nothing.
In Bangkok they tell people to go home and become socialists. In greece they tell them to go home and erm, become socialists. That's it. Tell your friends to go home and become socialists. Read a pamphlet on on the abolishment of money.
That's it. Then vote for them.
Then when there is enough people we can have socialism.

Sorry guys.

According to this blinkered and tiresome assertion, "the SPGB have had nothing to say on wars, revolutions, strikes and battles, real struggles across the world they say nothing", one can only say that the poster totally ignores the historical record where the SPGB have had everything to say on the issues and problems of capitalism and those which confront the working class.

We are accused of telling the workers in Bangkok and Greece 'to go home and become socialists', when nothing could be further from the truth. When such events occur our advice to the workers is clearly based on the question of; "Whose side are you on?'

In this respect the workers in Bangkok are involving themselves in a power struggle between the different factions of the capitalist class. In short workers are dying to further the interests of the Thai capitalists. And in fact they should not go home but stay at home and let the capitalists fight it out amongst themselves.

In Greece we have a totally different struggle taking place over the austerity measures the Greek government are imposing to pay of their debts to the international capitalists so that profits are maintained. Like all struggles of this nature its essential the Greek worker recognise they are severely restricted and limited on what they can actually do in resisting any downward pressure on their conditions and standard of living.

We have been here before and capitalism has the upper hand through the control of the state and the private ownership of the means of living. However, regardless of this reality socialists urge the Greek workers to struggle and obtain any concessions that are possible. In the meantime, socialists look forward to the day when their banners call for 'The abolition of the wages system'. By staying at home the Greek workers are accepting defeat which in effect is an open invite to the politicians to impose further austerity measures. Such inactivity is most certainly not in the interest of the workers.

 

[Proper Tidy]

The wiki broad brush is OK. There have been only two books on the SPGB. Robert Barltrop wrote The Monument which contains some factual errors but provides a feeling on the characters in the SPGB at the time. If you come across a copy of this I would grab it because its no longer in print, and I do know there have been several enquiries on ebay.

The other one is by Dave Perrin entitled The Socialist Party of Great Britain: Politics, Economics and Britain's Oldest Socialist Party. This is the better one for understanding the party's position on many issues over the years. If you are interested in purchasing a copy it maybe cheaper to get it from 52 Clapham High St rather than the bookseller.



If I was to describe our position on racism and fascism I would be doing urban75 a disservice. We have been opposed to both and over the years have written many attacks and analysis on the subject. We have published two pamphlets on racism both out of print. More recently, we published a pamphlet which combined an attack and analysis on the concept of race and the human nature versus human behaviour arguments: Are we prisoners of our genes? This is available free online or can be purchased from 52 Clapham High St.

Dave Perrins' book has a chapter on Fascism, democracy and the Second World War. We haven't published a pamphlet on fascism that I know of, but whenever its ugly head emerges out of the shadows aka the BNP you will find an article in the Socialist Standard relating to the most recent events. We would dearly like to debate with the BNP so we have a vocal platform to destroy their pernicious drivel. We are quite aware that such a debate will stoke the ire and anger of the left but our attitude is that the battle for ideas can only be won by punching very large holes in their arguments both in print and by vocal opposition.

Our position for class struggle in a dictatorship is that the struggle for democracy is the top priority for the working class and for socialists. Our advice to socialists in such situations is to keep their heads down but to become involved if the opportunity arises, and they are clear that their involvement includes putting the socialist case.

It is the Dave Perrin book that is published by Bridge Books, Wrexham. Surprised me a bit, normally they just do local history - albeit often of a working class political nature.

So would I be correct in saying that you don't believe in campaigning against racism and fascism specifically in any circumstances, but against capitalism as a whole? eg no differentiation between different forms of capitalism?

I found the last paragraph interesting - as much as I might criticise your positions, you are at least consistent in that you feel putting the case for socialism - and only socialism, in its truest form - is the sole aim of socialists. Why is this not the case under a dictatorship? Why would you then switch to agitating for a capitalist parliamentary democracy? Seems peculiar. What about a monarchy - would you agitate for socialism or for capitalist parliamentary democracy in this instance? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

 

[Captain Hurrah]

On the Suffragettes

Sod 'em with their big hats, sashes and umbrellas. There's a whole buried history of working class women fighting in labour struggles alongside and also sometimes against working class men at that time. And those sent to prisons didn't have the middle class back-up to help stop their kids from going without food and shelter.

 

[Gravediggers]

It is the Dave Perrin book that is published by Bridge Books, Wrexham. Surprised me a bit, normally they just do local history - albeit often of a working class political nature.

Like advised check out the cheapest price before you add it too your library. I have referred to it a number of times on this thread.

So would I be correct in saying that you don't believe in campaigning against racism and fascism specifically in any circumstances, but against capitalism as a whole? eg no differentiation between different forms of capitalism?

If you mean campaigning through demo's, confrontations, disruption of meetings, etc, no we don't.

I found the last paragraph interesting - as much as I might criticise your positions, you are at least consistent in that you feel putting the case for socialism - and only socialism, in its truest form - is the sole aim of socialists. Why is this not the case under a dictatorship? Why would you then switch to agitating for a capitalist parliamentary democracy? Seems peculiar. What about a monarchy - would you agitate for socialism or for capitalist parliamentary democracy in this instance? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

You haven't got the wrong end of the stick just not read what I wrote in regards to our consistency; ".... and they are clear that their involvement includes putting the socialist case". The same principle applies to a monarchy, in that we recognise the potential of capitalist parliamentary democracy becoming ammo for the workers the 'potential' only becomes a reality once the alternative of socialism is put in front of the workers with consistency.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Like advised check out the cheapest price before you add it too your library. I have referred to it a number of times on this thread.

I noticed, just didn't realise it was published by Bridge Books. Got a lot of time for them, so may well get it. Will shop around for the price although as it happens a friend of a friend type thing means I usually get them cheap direct.

If you mean campaigning through demo's, confrontations, disruption of meetings, etc, no we don't.

So no then! Why is this, if I can ask? Purely in terms of propagandising socialism, do you not differentiate between capitalism in a parliamentary democracy and capitalism under an authoritarian ultra-nationalist/fascist regime? Of course I know you differentiate in real terms, I do mean purely from the point of view of achieving socialism.

You haven't got the wrong end of the stick just not read what I wrote in regards to our consistency; ".... and they are clear that their involvement includes putting the socialist case". The same principle applies to a monarchy, in that we recognise the potential of capitalist parliamentary democracy becoming ammo for the workers the 'potential' only becomes a reality once the alternative of socialism is put in front of the workers with consistency.

Sorry, perhaps I'm slow on the uptake but I couldn't make head nor tail of this!

 

[sihhi]

We have been here before and capitalism has the upper hand through the control of the state and the private ownership of the means of living. However, regardless of this reality socialists urge the Greek workers to struggle and obtain any concessions that are possible. In the meantime, socialists look forward to the day when their banners call for 'The abolition of the wages system'. By staying at home the Greek workers are accepting defeat which in effect is an open invite to the politicians to impose further austerity measures. Such inactivity is most certainly not in the interest of the workers.

This is excellent:- SPGB actively promote direct action in Greece.

In what way will the SPGB support those who might be imprisoned in Greece. How will it act in Britain?

 

[dylans]

Gravediggers you guys are out there. almost monastic in outlook, abstract preaching about utopia.

Out of interest .When everyone makes an intellectual decision to live in a socialist stateless moneyless world society, and choose it through the ballot box, then we can have socialism. Until then all we can do is explain to people until they do.

Then you guys get elected and then abolish money, Out of interest. Is this immediate? I mean do the workers decide they want socialism then just throw away their money and start giving each other things according to their needs and abilities etc. Thats what you are saying right. ? No period of building a classless society, just immediate socialism?

Is that what you are saying?

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Gravediggers you guys are out there. almost monastic in outlook, abstract preaching about utopia.

Out of interest .When everyone makes an intellectual decision to live in a socialist stateless moneyless world society, and choose it through the ballot box, then we can have socialism. Until then all we can do is explain to people until they do.

Then you guys get elected and then abolish money, Out of interest. Is this immediate? I mean do the workers decide they want socialism then just throw away their money and start giving each other things according to their needs and abilities etc. Thats what you are saying right. Y ? No period of building a classless society, just immediate socialism?

Is that what you are saying?

And remember nobody with a vested interest in continuing the present set up will be able to oppose the ballot. It's well intentioned day dreaming; it is also a dangerously blinkered, moth eaten, poorly taxidermied politics.

Louis MacNeice

 

[Gravediggers]

.

So no then! Why is this, if I can ask? Purely in terms of propagandising socialism, do you not differentiate between capitalism in a parliamentary democracy and capitalism under an authoritarian ultra-nationalist/fascist regime? Of course I know you differentiate in real terms, I do mean purely from the point of view of achieving socialism.

We differentiate between parliamentary democracy and authoritarian ultra-nationalist/fascist regimes. And subsequently our activities are in accordance with the circumstances individual socialists find themselves. Until there is a substantial reaction towards the oppression of a authoritarian ultra-nationalist/fascist regimes there is little socialists can do. Once this occurs socialists would become involved on the understanding their views can be put.

Quote:
You haven't got the wrong end of the stick just not read what I wrote in regards to our consistency; ".... and they are clear that their involvement includes putting the socialist case". The same principle applies to a monarchy, in that we recognise the potential of capitalist parliamentary democracy becoming ammo for the workers the 'potential' only becomes a reality once the alternative of socialism is put in front of the workers with consistency. [/QUOTE]

Sorry, perhaps I'm slow on the uptake but I couldn't make head nor tail of this!

My fault I should have put it a bit clearer. To us the workers need to recognise that parliamentary democracy offers the potential for bringing about socialism. However, until this potential is expressed in socialist terms the possibilities of the potential becoming a reality remains hidden. In effect the potential must be combined with an alternative. I know I'm stating the obvious - but on times the obvious needs to be repeated to maintain consistency.

What remains important to us is the struggle for democracy is very important, although its limitations are a constant burden, for those who desire fundamental changes. Nonetheless, we take the idea of democracy a step further by proposing a participatory democracy as the political structure for socialism.

 

[dylans]

moth eaten, poorly taxidermied politics.

That's a perfect description..

 

[dylans]

A good man though William. Did a nice bit of furniture.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Then you guys get elected and then abolish money, Out of interest. Is this immediate? I mean do the workers decide they want socialism then just throw away their money and start giving each other things according to their needs and abilities etc. Thats what you are saying right. ? No period of building a classless society, just immediate socialism?

Is that what you are saying?

This is the bit I keep trying to understand. It's got me flummoxed. They reject entirely any notion of a transitionary period, so presumably, but then take umbrage with the suggestion they are utopian.

I don't get it.

 

[Proper Tidy]

My fault I should have put it a bit clearer. To us the workers need to recognise that parliamentary democracy offers the potential for bringing about socialism. However, until this potential is expressed in socialist terms the possibilities of the potential becoming a reality remains hidden. In effect the potential must be combined with an alternative. I know I'm stating the obvious - but on times the obvious needs to be repeated to maintain consistency.

What remains important to us is the struggle for democracy is very important, although its limitations are a constant burden, for those who desire fundamental changes. Nonetheless, we take the idea of democracy a step further by proposing a participatory democracy as the political structure for socialism.

Okay, I've got it now. So how come you recognise that reforms have a role to play in bringing about a necessary level of consciousness here, but not under parliamentary democracy? After all, the spectrum of parliamentary democracies is quite wide?

 

[dylans]

Michael Foot described them as pure as milk. Not a bad compliment. I think they have the most integrity and honesty of all political organisations. Like I said, monastic.

 

[Proper Tidy]

I think they have the most integrity and honesty of all political organisations.

That may be so; but I'm interested in what will work!

 

[dylans]

That may be so; but I'm interested in what will work!

Oh forget that.

 

[dylans]

I read somewhere, Wiki maybe, that during some election campaign or other, the SPGB had written, in chalk on the pavement, "If you don't want socialism, don't vote for the SPGB".

That's integrity. Nuts but honest.

On another demo an SPGB guy had a placard with "This demonstration is hopeless"

 

[Proper Tidy]

On another demo an SPGB guy had a placard with "This demonstration is hopeless"

Fair play, I like that!

 

[butchersapron]

Breaking ranks by even being on the demo!

 

[dylans]

Breaking ranks by even being on the demo!

I'm sure they were standing on the sidelines.

Speakers corner is their spot with their speaking platform. In their past they had a rep for producing superb orators. Though I never see them these days.

They have a few quid though. (from 2007)

The Metro today on p2 today had a story about political party funding. In the last quarter of last year it listed party's donations, the SPGB, receiving £166,000.

http://libcom.org/forums/organise/spgb-getting-166-000-3-months

 

[DotCommunist]

So they have to compete with the bloke who rants about aliens stealing our women and the man ranting about AIDS being a creation of the government labs? Tough gig.

 

[Proper Tidy]

So they have to compete with the bloke who rants about aliens stealing our women and the man ranting about AIDS being a creation of the government labs? Tough gig.

And Heiki Khoo - mind you, not sure he bothers any more since he got drummed out of Socialist Appeal. Shame, I've only caught speakers corner once and he was very good.

 

[dennisr]

So they have to compete with the bloke who rants about aliens stealing our women and the man ranting about AIDS being a creation of the government labs? Tough gig.

They have to compete with my mate - 'mr speakers corner' himself - Heiko Khoo.

http://www.speakerscorner.net
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heiko_Khoo



bugger - you beat me to it PT!...

 

[dennisr]

And Heiki Khoo - mind you, not sure he bothers any more since he got drummed out of Socialist Appeal. Shame, I've only caught speakers corner once and he was very good.

He's still going. He was my organiser and educator as a wee youth in pompey

 

[Gravediggers]

This is excellent:- SPGB actively promote direct action in Greece.

In what way will the SPGB support those who might be imprisoned in Greece. How will it act in Britain?

We are not in the habit of telling the workers the specific activity appropriate to the day-to-day struggle. If workers are imprisoned in Greece the SPGB will voice our support for them and individual socialists may help them best they can.

 

[Proper Tidy]

He's still going. He was my organiser and educator as a wee youth in pompey

Good to hear, don't know him myself but he's one of my 'facebook friends'. What's the score now then, freelance or back in the IMT fold?

 

[Louis MacNeice]

We are not in the habit of telling the workers the specific activity appropriate to the day-to-day struggle. If workers are imprisoned in Greece the SPGB will voice our support for them and individual socialists may help them best they can.

Good for you GD; go on voice that support. You can feel a trenchant article coming on can't you?

Louis MacNeice

 

[Gravediggers]

Sod 'em with their big hats, sashes and umbrellas. There's a whole buried history of working class women fighting in labour struggles alongside and also sometimes against working class men at that time. And those sent to prisons didn't have the middle class back-up to help stop their kids from going without food and shelter.

Nice one. The suffragettes generally ignored the plight of the working class women, despite the fact they welcomed their support in gaining the vote for women with property.