SPGB

[Proper Tidy]

Nice one. The suffragettes generally ignored the plight of the working class women, despite the fact they welcomed their support in gaining the vote for women with property.

What about the many suffragettes who were also active in the labour movement, the ILP, etc?

 

[butchersapron]

Nice one. The suffragettes generally ignored the plight of the working class women, despite the fact they welcomed their support in gaining the vote for women with property.

Hang on, it's very easy to attack the votes for ladies, not women elements of the Suffragettes, their ignorance of the class nature of the situation and so on - and people like Emma Goldman did - without descending into repressed rants about 'sex arrogance' and other ripperology.

Is this really what Emile Pannekoek threw himself under the horse for?

 

[Gravediggers]

Gravediggers you guys are out there. almost monastic in outlook, abstract preaching about utopia.

Out of interest .When everyone makes an intellectual decision to live in a socialist stateless moneyless world society, and choose it through the ballot box, then we can have socialism. Until then all we can do is explain to people until they do.

Then you guys get elected and then abolish money, Out of interest. Is this immediate? I mean do the workers decide they want socialism then just throw away their money and start giving each other things according to their needs and abilities etc. Thats what you are saying right. ? No period of building a classless society, just immediate socialism?

Is that what you are saying?

We do not envisage any such scenario. With socialism gaining support we would expect the socialist working class preparing themselves for the eventual transformation of political power with a variety of activity taking place. For instance, at this very moment the ECA Working Group is looking at the problems of calculating use value in socialist society. Once we are nearer the point of no return we envisage an extension of public transport into free travel, either by the capitalists conceding the economic reality of workers refusing to pay fares and the transport staff giving way to such demands. Again another expectation is the extension of the free cycle project and the decline of ebay.

There would also be a change in attitude towards implementing a resource based economy much on the lines presently being tackled by the ZM. Our expectations in regards to countering the environmental damage caused by the continual growth of capitalism would also increase dramatically.

In effect we say the transistional period is taking place right now and gaining pace with every contradiction capitalism places in its path. In Wales we already have free bus travel for the elderly and disabled, unfortunately it stops at the border.

 

[butchersapron]

You've been looking at that problem for a century+. Not sure i voted for you to do that on my behalf btw.

 

[Gravediggers]

What about the many suffragettes who were also active in the labour movement, the ILP, etc?

The point being?

 

[Proper Tidy]

The point being?

Well, they weren't ignoring the plight of the working class then, were they? There are criticisms to be made of the movement, as butchers hit upon, but to dismiss the movement, particularly with the language of chauvinism, stinks of, well, chauvinism.

 

[Proper Tidy]

We do not envisage any such scenario. With socialism gaining support we would expect the socialist working class preparing themselves for the eventual transformation of political power with a variety of activity taking place. For instance, at this very moment the ECA Working Group is looking at the problems of calculating use value in socialist society. Once we are nearer the point of no return we envisage an extension of public transport into free travel, either by the capitalists conceding the economic reality of workers refusing to pay fares and the transport staff giving way to such demands. Again another expectation is the extension of the free cycle project and the decline of ebay.

There would also be a change in attitude towards implementing a resource based economy much on the lines presently being tackled by the ZM. Our expectations in regards to countering the environmental damage caused by the continual growth of capitalism would also increase dramatically.

In effect we say the transistional period is taking place right now and gaining pace with every contradiction capitalism places in its path. In Wales we already have free bus travel for the elderly and disabled, unfortunately it stops at the border.

But you also argue that the conditions for socialism already exist - yet here you are saying that we (or rather SPGB and the ZM) are in the process of creating the conditions ("In effect we say the transistional period is taking place right now") - so which one is it?

 

[Gravediggers]

And remember nobody with a vested interest in continuing the present set up will be able to oppose the ballot. It's well intentioned day dreaming; it is also a dangerously blinkered, moth eaten, poorly taxidermied politics.

Louis MacNeice

Louis many thanks for bringing such a point to my attention, despite the fact that wasn't your intention. I notice you are quite apt at brushing your total ignorance under the carpet when it suits your haha mood.

In this instance, the post was in relation to when socialists constitute the majority. And yes, "nobody with a vested interest in continuing the present set up will be able to oppose the ballot". If you are of the opinion the opposite will occur is it possible for you to explain how they can do this?

 

[dylans]

Nice one. The suffragettes generally ignored the plight of the working class women, despite the fact they welcomed their support in gaining the vote for women with property.

The movement gave birth the class fighters too like Sylvia Pankhurst

I wanted to rouse these women of the submerged masses to be, not merely the argument for more fortunate people, but to be fighters on their own account despising mere platitudes and catch cries, revolting against the hideous conditions about them, and demanding for themselves and their families a full share in the benefits of civilisation and progress." (Sylvia Pankhurst)

 

[Proper Tidy]

Louis many thanks for bringing such a point to my attention, despite the fact that wasn't your intention. I notice you are quite apt at brushing your total ignorance under the carpet when it suits your haha mood.

In this instance, the post was in relation to when socialists constitute the majority. And yes, "nobody with a vested interest in continuing the present set up will be able to oppose the ballot". If you are of the opinion the opposite will occur is it possible for you to explain how they can do this?

Louis can answer for himself but I would have thought that obvious. They could attempt to down the revolution in blood, could they not?

 

[Gravediggers]

But you also argue that the conditions for socialism already exist - yet here you are saying that we (or rather SPGB and the ZM) are in the process of creating the conditions ("In effect we say the transistional period is taking place right now") - so which one is it?

The objective conditions exist in that an abundance is the reality. However, at present we are not in the process of creating the conditions for socialism but planning for the transformation. The actual creation of the conditions for socialism will take place when the workers are good and ready and satisfied the transformation will be as smooth has possible.

 

[butchersapron]

The point being?

The point being that you approached class issues in terms of gender and you today applauding that approach. You bury class with an approach like that. You don't highlight it or emphasise its importance.

 

[Proper Tidy]

The objective conditions exist in that an abundance is the reality. However, at present we are not in the process of creating the conditions for socialism but planning for the transformation. The actual creation of the conditions for socialism will take place when the workers are good and ready and satisfied the transformation will be as smooth has possible.

So what if the workers decide to crack on with the revolution before you and the Zeitgest Movement have finished your studies?

 

[dylans]

Louis can answer for himself but I would have thought that obvious. They could attempt to down the revolution in blood, could they not?

Of course not, because the majority would want it. There is no historical example of the ruling class slamming down the iron fist on a movement that threatened its existance.

Oh, Pinochet.

 

[Gravediggers]

Of course not, because the majority would want it. There is no historical example of the ruling class slamming down the iron fist on a movement that threatened its existance.

Oh, Pinochet.

The events in Chile were not about socialism but about reforms. This assertion don't quite fit the picture. Try again.

 

[butchersapron]

What's it like to live outside of history?

 

[Gravediggers]

So what if the workers decide to crack on with the revolution before you and the Zeitgest Movement have finished your studies?

It wont just be us and the Zeitgeist Movement who will be planning for the transformation of political power, there will be groups in all walks of life who will be developing their ideas on how to make the revolutionary process as smoothly has possible. So in effect they will be cracking on with the revolution.

 

[Gravediggers]

Louis can answer for himself but I would have thought that obvious. They could attempt to down the revolution in blood, could they not?

Just let them try and they will soon find out they have taken on more than they can chew.

 

[dylans]

Just let them try and they will soon find out they have taken on more than they can chew.

Only if we are prepared to hit back

 

[dylans]

The events in Chile were not about socialism but about reforms. This assertion don't quite fit the picture. Try again.

Chile showed what happens when entrenched class interests are seriously threatened.

 

[Gravediggers]

Only if we are prepared to hit back

I've already stated that socialists are not pacifists. For myself I would welcome a reason for taking the bastards out. And I know a lot more like me. If they do decide to use violence under such circumstances I see no alternative other than to offer them conditions of surrender and if they persist with violence they will be made to suffer the bloody consequences. Too right!

But I doubt, given my age if I will have the opportunity to vent my anger . Also after giving it some thought IMO a violent reaction is going to be very small scale.

 

[Gravediggers]

Chile showed what happens when entrenched class interests are seriously threatened.

Quite true, but unlikely to happen when a socialist majority is on the cards.

 

[dylans]

Quite true, but unlikely to happen when a socialist majority is on the cards.

Hey Gravediggers. Am I correct to assume that you guys hold up William Morris as an inspiration. ?
I came across him when I was a student a long time ago. Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't his thing about art in labour, that if something can't be made with joy and quality then it shouldn't be made?
How do you square this idea (if it is indeed an idea held by the SPGB) with producing on a mass scale things that people want.

I respect Morris but I never envisioned his ideas as anything but impossible on anything beyond a very small scale such as groups of craftsmen etc

Also doesn't the likes of Morris envisage people doing this now, I mean producing art in labour, setting up workshops and craft groups etc. Why dont the SPGB do this. (or do they?)

 

[dannysp]

I'm sure they were standing on the sidelines.

Speakers corner is their spot with their speaking platform. In their past they had a rep for producing superb orators. Though I never see them these days.

They have a few quid though. (from 2007)



http://libcom.org/forums/organise/spgb-getting-166-000-3-months

Then you need tour eyes tested! I,ll be there from around 10am till about 4pm,
Come and say hello.

 

[dylans]

Then you need tour eyes tested! I,ll be there from around 10am till about 4pm,
Come and say hello.

Not tested. I'm rarely in London that's all. But I assure you next time i am in London i will take the opportunity to come and listen

 

[Gravediggers]

Not tested. I'm rarely in London that's all. But I assure you next time i am in London i will take the opportunity to come and listen

Give him a PM and he will be sure to make an appearance, health permitting.

 

[dylans]

Give him a PM and he will be sure to make an appearance, health permitting.

What about yourself. Do you go in for a bit of oratory yourself?

 

[Proper Tidy]

Then you need tour eyes tested! I,ll be there from around 10am till about 4pm,
Come and say hello.

Ah so you were the PPC for Vauxhall then?

 

[Gravediggers]

Hey Gravediggers. Am I correct to assume that you guys hold up William Morris as an inspiration. ?
I came across him when I was a student a long time ago. Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't his thing about art in labour, that if something can't be made with joy and quality then it shouldn't be made?
How do you square this idea (if it is indeed an idea held by the SPGB) with producing on a mass scale things that people want.

I respect Morris but I never envisioned his ideas as anything but impossible on anything beyond a very small scale such as groups of craftsmen etc

Also doesn't the likes of Morris envisage people doing this now, I mean producing art in labour, setting up workshops and craft groups etc. Why dont the SPGB do this. (or do they?)

William Morris gave over 500 talks in about a year and it left him exhausted and IME was a significant contribution to his early death. So no in that respect we don't find him inspiring, but find it much more relaxing, enjoyable and interesting by taking a more leisurely pace so to speak. Not that the other half would agree!

We admire Morris for what he had to say and how he put it in fact his, 'How we live and how we might live' provides an excellent analysis and explanation on what we've got and what we can get. Copy from 52 Clapham High St.

Yes Morris did envisage producing art in labour, not sure whether or not if he thought it possible in capitalism and it was made available for the workers. Yes members of the SPGB have been known to be involved with art workshops and craft groups. Not sure about now though. I do know quite a few who are advice workers and support workers with the homeless, etc. Which I use to do before I retired.

 

[dylans]

William Morris gave over 500 talks in about a year and it left him exhausted and IME was a significant contribution to his early death. So no in that respect we don't find him inspiring, but find it much more relaxing, enjoyable and interesting by taking a more leisurely pace so to speak. Not that the other half would agree!

We admire Morris for what he had to say and how he put it in fact his, 'How we live and how we might live' provides an excellent analysis and explanation on what we've got and what we can get. Copy from 52 Clapham High St.

Yes Morris did envisage producing art in labour, not sure whether or not if he thought it possible in capitalism and it was made available for the workers. Yes members of the SPGB have been known to be involved with art workshops and craft groups. Not sure about now though. I do know quite a few who are advice workers and support workers with the homeless, etc. Which I use to do before I retired.

Morris is famous for his wall paper patterns of course but as I recall he produced furniture and stained glass windows etc too. I remember reading his novel news from nowhere. I liked his stuff and respect him as an artist