Selling something is not the only form of transaction, for instance if I produced a nice tune on my recorder you may desire it and repay me in kind, perhaps with help sowing my button on my shirt.
SPGB
- Thread starter Proper Tidy
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Selling something is not the only form of transaction, for instance if I produced a nice tune on my recorder you may desire it and repay me in kind, perhaps with help sowing my button on my shirt.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Again revealing that your 'simplistic example' doesn't start from how can we provide for the community but what can i trade for myself.
Gravediggers
New Member
What do you consider the means of living? Perhaps its the take away around the corner, or the people who run our energy supplies, schools, hospitals, etc,etc? Its all of these and more, the point is we don't own them a minority do - which means we do not live in a true democracy.
Of course its not a static calculation and I never suggested any such thing. However, you need to be careful when you are talking about needs and desires in a socialist society because they wont be exactly the same needs and desires appertaining in the here and now in capitalist society. Most of these needs and desires are consumer fed and have consequently led to a massive glut in commodities of every shape and size. For even the charity shops are in competition with each other. What does that say to you?
Yes of course needs and desires changes with the introduction of every new widget or the reality shows we have a chuckle over. When socialists talk about human needs the main topics come under the heading of: Food, shelter, clothing, care, education, health and leisure. We are presently in a position to supply and distribute these needs to every human on the planet, if they so wish. Capitalism is incapable of even thinking about it, let alone doing it!
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Wow, just wow. Just me and you on our little island with no prior existing conditions or social relationships that we're born into.
I was too young to be involved in politics when the SDP emerged. What are man-months?
They will surley cut corporation tax and make it more profitable for companies to come and trade and partake in economic activity here, that will enrich people.
It's a happy thought.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
It's a type of housekeeping model that was being laughed at by economists 200 years ago.
Yes I thought i'd start off with something simple, before asking for an explanation of how Socialist countries would trade with Capitalist ones.
Gravediggers
New Member
What is called the trickle down theory. Lets face the facts shall we, for the only thing that has trickled down is a massive increase in those who work for 2 dollars a day or less. In Britain this theory in practice has led to a widening of the income gap and 22% of children and 15% of the elderly residing in London living in poverty! If you want the figures for the rest of the country they are easily available on the internet.
I take it you only read the news you want to read for hard facts like these can make you start thinking and questioning the kind of society we live in.
Its called a wake up call!
That sounds dreadful, why would anyone want to do that? Free is cheaper.
Gravediggers
New Member
The establishment of a global socialist society will mean the end of trade, exchange, buying and selling. We will have free access to the means of living, money will have no function - even playing the game of Monopoly will be meaningless - just like your thoughts which appear to be stuck in the mindset of capitalism. No kid.
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
A man-month is a person working 160 hours in a month - used in team working, software development etc.
If every country does what you suggest, there will be nothing left except companies trading.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
You're simply the other side of this clown's abstract coin GD.
Hi Moon
In a classless society of common ownership everyone would have the same relationship to the means of production, therefor all would share a common interest, so we could happily trust our fellows who had been delegated to take their turn at the administration of things.
As I put it earlier, if nobody works nobody lives, if we all work well everybody lives well.
Thanks.
Gravediggers
New Member
Butchers have you ever thought that abstractions are vital to the human species. Without abstractions the world would be a very poor place and filled with people like yourself with no useful function in the discussion of: Ideas, concepts, notions, theories, possibilities, hypothesis and imagination. What a dreary world we would live in if we followed your advice and ignored the ifs, buts, maybe's, howevers and could be's. Do you ever, ever use your brain box without making an abstraction? Very, very doubtful?
free spirit
more tea vicar?
I reckon I'd give it about an hour before you'd be using moon23 as sharkbait.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
Many philosophers have interpreted the world, Gravediggers.
The point however.
IS TO CHANGE IT
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
Your delight in being able to regurgitate this awful stuff speaks volumes about your useless poltical modus operandi; now push those fingers back down your throat, I'm sure there's still plenty more to come.
Louis MacNeice
Well, firstly ask yourself - why would you want to trade your spade for food when food and everything else that you might need is available free of charge at your local distribution point? You just go along and pick up your tin of baked beans or whatever as and when required. Similarly, with work - you just go along to your local production unit - factory, farm, office or whatever - and put in whatever hours you want on a purely voluntary unpaid basis. This is how socialism works. This is what socialism means. "From each according to ability to each according to need"
Absurd? Ridiculous? Naively utopian? Not at all. It is actually an eminently practical system and I guarantee if you stick with argument you will soon discover all the props of a conventional ideological take on "reality" which you have taken for granted being knocked out one by one. Socialism is predicated on the possibility that we can produce enough to satisfy our needs. That makes greed uneccesary - you dont take more water from a public fountain than you need just because its free, do you? More to the point there will be absolutely no status attached to accumulating wealth when all goods are free to everyone
The technological possiblity of material sufficiency is something that is constantly stifled by capitalism and, in point of fact, capitalism is a monumentally wasteful system for meeting human needs. Here's a little exercise you can do. Make a list of all those occupations that are necessary within a capitalist economy but would have no purpose in a socialist society. Everything to do with money would go for starters - pay departments, tax consultants, banks etc. Then there all those other occupations like armanents producers which only exist to satsify the demand for armaments to fight capitalist wars over things like resources, trade routes and markets.
The SPGB published a little pamphlet sometime ago called "Socialism as a practical alternative" which I am sure they still stock. Why dont you download a copy form their site and check it out.? If I remember correctly it cites evidence to show that at least half of all work done today under capitalism would be unneccesary which means you will have twice the amount of manpower and resoruces for socially useful production.
One final thing - this business about decisionmaking. Look , forget any idea of some kind of monster bureaucracy calculating everything that needs to be done downm to the finest detail from some vast sprawling central headquarters. Central - or society wide - planning is about as far removed from socialism as it is possible to get.
Of necessity, socialism will be a largely decentralised society. There will obviously be some functions that require wider regional or even global cooperation - like the aviation industry - but most decisions will be local. The principle of subsidiarity will apply. Also, most decisionmaking need not be collectivelised or democratised but made automatically by people on the spot. Democracy is relevant where there is an important decision to be made that affects a lot of people. You dont need a democratic vote on whether to order more cartridge ink for the office printer.
In this regard socialism will also be a largely self regulating system. If you look at, say, how a supermarket operates today you can get some idea of the mechanism involved. Stock levels are constantly monitored and where necessary replenished, with shortages automatically triggering signals to suppliers for fresh stock. This system is called calculation in kind. Socialism will make abundant use of such a system but will dispense completely with monetary calculation.. It will be a much more streamlined efficient and environmentally friendly way of meeting human needs.
In short some of the clues as to how a socialist society would organise itself already exist under our very noses today
Gravediggers
New Member
QUITE TRUE. And the reason why I'm no philosopher and butchers thinks he is. His continual arguments to call a halt to the discussion do need replying to from time to time, otherwise he would be lost for words.
Gravediggers
New Member
Nasty turn of phrase you are using there Louis. I suspect I've rattled your cage by picking up when you unintentionally let your guard down by actually posing a question which related to the socialist case.
Starting to feel quite vulnerable I guess when you are forced to resort to the poverty of advising self-harm. You'll be telling me to cut my throat next. What happened to your poor imitation of Julie Birchill, I'm sure she would be so shocked at your suggestion it would be off to the naughty corner for you? But if the truth were only known, that is your comfort zone by all accounts.
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
You're confusing discussion, with your all too apparent need to vomit up day dreams of imagined yesterdays; now get those fingers back down your gullet and show us what you've got. GD the SPGB as emetic performance art.
Louis MacNeice
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
Vomiting is necessarily self harm? You'll be telling me next that the same is true of tattoos. Or perhaps you see such moral conservatism as part of your whole Edwardian schtick.
Louis MacNeice
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Come come, this is pure sex arrogance.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
You have a very accurate turn of phrase Louis. I read your description and mutter "yes," under my breath. Performance art indeed.
But I like them and I like this thread. The description of social relationships under socialism by robbo was beautiful to read and I understand what Michael Foot meant when he said "like milk" . On the whole I agree that, as a description of the world I want, it is excellent. Really first class. In fact I would go so far as to say it was one of the best's posts I have ever read on this site.
It's the immediacy and intellectualisation of struggles, of the process of getting there that I find nuts. But I am enoying getting to know them. They are day dreamers but, so far, intriguing ones
Proper Tidy
Arsed
This.
I enjoyed the post a lot too. I just don't see any serious understanding of how we're meant to get there.
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
Proper Tidy
Arsed
Quite.
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