SPGB

[Proper Tidy]

Would you be satisfied if I listed the worlds conflicts and power struggles where Trotskyist's have taken sides with a section of the capitalist class. Can I have your permission to start with the great man himself or would you prefer a modern version?

Knock yourself out. Perhaps you can give us another happy story about how you'll no doubt get a bullet in the head or banished to a far away land, as members of the WSM are persecuted for being the only pure socialist movement, just like in...err...

 

[JWH]

Yes no doubt, but where the whitchfinder McCarthy tried to shut them up I want the trots to keep yakking away so they put their foot in it every time and without fail. And for a very good reason: The more they look the fools the more possibility of recruits for true socialism. urban75 you have got a fan for life - why pay for adverts when you have this tool at your disposal to spot the apologists for capitalism.

Eh? Are you under the mistaken impression that Urban75 is a hub for Trots? And U75 has never bought ads for anything to my knowledge, least of all to attract or repel Trots. You're barking up the wrong tree entirely.

it was thought appropriate to to read the SPGB's editorial on the outbreak of WW1

Odd use of the passive voice there.

 

[Gravediggers]

Eh? Are you under the mistaken impression that Urban75 is a hub for Trots? And U75 has never bought ads for anything to my knowledge, least of all to attract or repel Trots. You're barking up the wrong tree entirely.

I've never held the impression that urban75 is a hub for trots, it is indeed a hub for everything which concerns the public. And I welcome that for it enables joe public the opportunity to chat away as he pleases, and regardless whether or not the contribution is negative or positive.

When I referred to advertising I should have made it clearer that I was referring to advertising in newspapers where payment is demanded. U75 is a public board with a considerable number of viewers observing particular threads which catch their eye. In this respect U75 is a free advertising board. And it is my intention to advertise true socialism whenever and wherever the opportunity arises.

The political affiliation or the apolitical views of the posters is immaterial to me. If I spot an opportunity to put the case for socialism I shall do it.

 

[Proper Tidy]

I've never held the impression that urban75 is a hub for trots, it is indeed a hub for everything which concerns the public. And I welcome that for it enables joe public the opportunity to chat away as he pleases, and regardless whether or not the contribution is negative or positive.

When I referred to advertising I should have made it clearer that I was referring to advertising in newspapers where payment is demanded. U75 is a public board with a considerable number of viewers observing particular threads which catch their eye. In this respect U75 is a free advertising board. And it is my intention to advertise true socialism whenever and wherever the opportunity arises.

The political affiliation or the apolitical views of the posters is immaterial to me. If I spot an opportunity to put the case for socialism I shall do it.

And can I just say what a cracking job you are doing, advertising true socialism. I reckon insulting, offending and patronising pretty much everybody, and if all else fails accusing them of being trots and culpable for every atrocity known to man, is definitely the way to go. All this advertising guff about appealing to people is just capitalist dogma, after all.

Keep up the good work, GD. I'm sure the masses reading this thread will be rushing to join the squeegees, you'll be deluged. Might even be worth making your contributions into a pamphlet.

 

[JWH]

U75 is a public board with a considerable number of viewers observing particular threads which catch their eye. In this respect U75 is a free advertising board. And it is my intention to advertise true socialism whenever and wherever the opportunity arises.

Love it.

 

[ernestolynch]

Who is the leader of the SPGB?

 

[Proper Tidy]

Who is the leader of the SPGB?

They don't have one, they have a ten man committee though, annual elections I think

 

[robbo203]

And can I just say what a cracking job you are doing, advertising true socialism..

Which is more than can be said of your organisation PT. By the way, you still havent provided the link I asked for to back up your claim that your lot frequently referred to the need for a "moneyless wageless socialist commonwealth" in your publication. I wonder why?

 

[Proper Tidy]

Which is more than can be said of your organisation PT. By the way, you still havent provided the link I asked for to back up your claim that your lot frequently referred to the need for a "moneyless wageless socialist commonwealth" in your publication. I wonder why?

Could be because I long ago gave up trying to have an honest debate with you lot. You could call me a newly convinced impossibilist on this front.

Btw, my assertion was that we call for socialism (which would be, by definition, moneyless, wageless, stateless) in each and every publication.

But if you want to continue the debate, how about we refresh the subject a little? Perhaps you could explain why the SPGB don't oppose the far right or fascism? The will of the people or something, innit?

Also, you squeegees could perhaps do with a pamphlet on irony and sarcasm, seems to be a bit of a blind spot.

 

[robbo203]

Who is the leader of the SPGB?

There is no leader. The concept of leadership is regarded by the SPGB as undemocratic. There are party polls and conferences in which every member of the party has the right to vote. There is an executive committee which manages the day to day business of the party in line with decisions laid down by the membership as a whole. I think the SPGB is pretty much unique among political parties for the degree to which it is run along scrupulously democratic lines. I can think of no other organisation that comes even close to matching it in this regard. It is an extremely transperant organisation with everything being open to public scrutiny. There is no such thing as a closed meeting in the SPGB.

SPGBers are renowned for speaking their own mind and, if this comes across occasionally as somewhat brusque and cantankerous , it does neverthless attest to a vibrant and healthy internal democracy. Visit their internal forums if you need persuading. If you think youve been the butt of some sarcastic comment from an SPGBer spare a thought for other members of the SPGB It is an excellent place for assertiveness training!

But seriously, this is where all these snidey superficial comments we have heard about the SPGB on this thread go utterly and completely wrong. People who make them know little or nothing about the SPGB. It is far from being the kind of monolithic organisation populated by clones that it is made out to be. For a small organisation it is very diverse.

I have one or two problems with certain aspects of its case which prevents me from being a member but that does not detract from the fact it is vastly more interesting and attractive than the mind-numbingly boring politics of leadership peddled by the conventional parties. Thank christ the SPGB has not succumbed to the "Hello Magazine" weltanshauung of capitalist politics with it pathetic focus on the Camerons, Browns, Cleggs and all the interchanegeable "suits" of this world which we , the bovine electorate, are expected to look up to and into whose hands we foolishly place our future.

In the SPGB ironically, individuality is alive and well and flourishing. In the massed ranks of the main capitalist parties it is dead husk.

 

[robbo203]

Could be because I long ago gave up trying to have an honest debate with you lot. You could call me a newly convinced impossibilist on this front.

Btw, my assertion was that we call for socialism (which would be, by definition, moneyless, wageless, stateless) in each and every publication..

You are not being honest here. Your organisation clearly envisages socialism to be a society with money and wages - read the link you gave! - and if you think (rightly) that by definition, socialism would be moneyless, wageless, stateless then perhaps it is time for you to hand in your resignation

 

[Proper Tidy]

You are not being honest here. Your organisation clearly envisages socialism to be a society with money and wages - read the link you gave! - and if you think (rightly) that by definition, socialism would be moneyless, wageless, stateless then perhaps it is time for you to hand in your resignation

It really doesn't. I appreciate nuance isn't your strong point but still.

The Socialist Party fights for socialist change - a democratic society run for the needs of all and not the profits of a few. We also fight, in our day-to-day campaigning, for every possible improvement for working-class people.

Do you see what they do there?

We then put forward a set of demands.

You should really brush up on your socialist politics, Robbo. We are, lest you forget, a Marxist party. Ergo, we accept the Marxian aim of... a moneyless, wageless, stateless, democratic, socialist society.

Anyway - why don't you tell us more about why the SPGB don't oppose the far right or fascism?

 

[Gravediggers]

Anyway - why don't you tell us more about why the SPGB don't oppose the far right or fascism?

I don't know where you picked up this nonsense from for clearly we are opposed to all capitalist ideologies. Provide a link which makes your point.

 

[moon23]

There is no leader. The concept of leadership is regarded by the SPGB as undemocratic. There are party polls and conferences in which every member of the party has the right to vote. There is an executive committee which manages the day to day business of the party in line with decisions laid down by the membership as a whole. I think the SPGB is pretty much unique among political parties for the degree to which it is run along scrupulously democratic lines. I can think of no other organisation that comes even close to matching it in this regard. It is an extremely transperant organisation with everything being open to public scrutiny. There is no such thing as a closed meeting in the SPGB.

SPGBers are renowned for speaking their own mind and, if this comes across occasionally as somewhat brusque and cantankerous , it does neverthless attest to a vibrant and healthy internal democracy. Visit their internal forums if you need persuading. If you think youve been the butt of some sarcastic comment from an SPGBer spare a thought for other members of the SPGB It is an excellent place for assertiveness training!

But seriously, this is where all these snidey superficial comments we have heard about the SPGB on this thread go utterly and completely wrong. People who make them know little or nothing about the SPGB. It is far from being the kind of monolithic organisation populated by clones that it is made out to be. For a small organisation it is very diverse.

I have one or two problems with certain aspects of its case which prevents me from being a member but that does not detract from the fact it is vastly more interesting and attractive than the mind-numbingly boring politics of leadership peddled by the conventional parties. Thank christ the SPGB has not succumbed to the "Hello Magazine" weltanshauung of capitalist politics with it pathetic focus on the Camerons, Browns, Cleggs and all the interchanegeable "suits" of this world which we , the bovine electorate, are expected to look up to and into whose hands we foolishly place our future.

In the SPGB ironically, individuality is alive and well and flourishing. In the massed ranks of the main capitalist parties it is dead husk.

I think the main capitalist parties might outnumber you a bit in terms of membership.

 

[butchersapron]

Where haver the SPGB posters and their fellow traveller got the impression that they're viewed as sort of battle hardened political warriors from? Do they really genuinely believe that they've got a reputation for fiercely speaking their mind and attacking political shibboleths? It's madness.

 

[moon23]

I'm talking about a situation where class struggle has reached a point where the question "who rules" is being asked. In such a situation workers will have siezed or be fighting to sieze and control of the means and tools of production and the organisational institutions of the state. Democratic organisations created by the workers themselves will be fighting for control of industries and state institutions. Demonstrations and protests, strikes and occupations s will be widespread as workers use the most effective weapons available to them. Armed defence militias created of by and under the control of workers and created during the process of struggle, will be pitched against the armed might of the state. Demands will be made that simply can't be delivered without the ruling class giving up power. So the ruling classes will fight.

In this situation it is naive and utopian to expect the organs of the state to be passive or to simply fold and come over to the side of the workers. Sure, in such a situation whole sections of the police and military may come over or refuse to shoot etc but you can be damn sure that a significant section won't. And how do we know? Because there has never been a situation where the ruling class give up without a fight.


That is absurdly naive. They can drown it in blood


No it is exactly what the ballot box doesn't mean. The electoral process is not a weapon that can be used for the siezure of state power. It is an mechanism to provide an escape valve for discontent and a tool to spin the illusion of democratic participation.

When electoral participation threatens to seriously challenge the interests of ruling elites the response is repression.
This is not abstract, turn on your TV and watch the news from Bangkok. There, the demands by the urban and rural poor for electoral transparency are being answered with bullets.

Let's say you were a Thai member of the SPGB right now, in Bangkok. What would you say to those on the streets. That they have no chance and should go away and preach abstract ideals of socialism to their friends until they are convinced? Or would you build barracades and handout weapons, send out delegates to workers calling for solidarity strikes, appeal to low ranking troops and police to rebel, call for uprisings in other parts of the country etc.

What would you say to them?

Get a Job.

 

[moon23]

Where haver the SPGB posters and their fellow traveller got the impression that they're viewed as sort of battle hardened political warriors from? Do they really genuinely believe that they've got a reputation for fiercely speaking their mind and attacking political shibboleths? It's madness.

Battle hardened from fighting the SWP for the best paper pitch maybe.

 

[butchersapron]

Battle hardened from fighting the SWP for the best paper pitch maybe.

They're a million times better than you.

 

[moon23]

They're a million times better than you.

At losing deposits maybe.

 

[Proper Tidy]

I don't know where you picked up this nonsense from for clearly we are opposed to all capitalist ideologies. Provide a link which makes your point.

From Wiki - perhaps not the most reliable of sources, admittedly.

I also notice Bridge Books, from my home town, have a book on yourselves. Any good? Got a few of thiers already, might look it up.

Unlike other left groups the SPGB did not see fascism as a special threat to the working class. Rather than formulating it as the last refuge of capitalism organising to defend itself against the working class, the party's writers and speakers tended to view it as a particular type of reform movement. The two specific characteristics identified, though, were that it tended to be a form of national consolidation - unifying fragment nations such as Germany, Italy and Spain - and that it tended to have the mass support of the working class.[2]
The party's theory made the working class the politically decisive class: thus if the working class supported fascism then fascism would prevail. Answers to letters in the Socialist Standard in the 1930s repeatedly made this point. Early writers noted what Benito Mussolini was able to do with the power of the state on his side, a part of a vindication of the SPGB's approach of the workers seizing control of the state. The SPGB, hence, declined to join anti-fascist fronts or to make a particular issue of anti-fascism

So anyway, what's your whole position on anti-racism and anti-fascism? Is it true that in a dictatorship your position would be to wait for the advent of parliamentary democracy rather than active resistance?

 

[moon23]

From Wiki - perhaps not the most reliable of sources, admittedly.

I also notice Bridge Books, from my home town, have a book on yourselves. Any good? Got a few of thiers already, might look it up.



So anyway, what's your whole position on anti-racism and anti-fascism? Is it true that in a dictatorship your position would be to wait for the advent of parliamentary democracy rather than active resistance?

What's the point of asking this question, it's completely hypothetical and pointless. Rather than sitting around debating what a small leftist organisation might or might not do, you would be better off thinking about why these groups always bicker with each other.

 

[Proper Tidy]

What's the point of asking this question, it's completely hypothetical and pointless. Rather than sitting around debating what a small leftist organisation might or might not do, you would be better off thinking about why these groups always bicker with each other.

Fuck off. As much as I've been irritated by the squeegees, I'd rather chat with them any day over you.

 

[whichfinder]

They don't have one, they have a ten man committee though, annual elections I think

Actually five men and five women at the moment And yes, elections are held annually and the committee is always under the control of the membership not t'other way round.

 

[JWH]

They're a million times better than you.

Who is s/he?

 

[butchersapron]

Just some lib-dem drifting into US style libertarianism.

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

The hustings meeting You've referred to here was organised by the Stop the War Coalition, so it was thought appropriate to to read the SPGB's editorial on the outbreak of WW1, which illustrated the cause of that conflict and that workers were being encouraged to lay down their lives in the interests of their respective ruling classes. It called the war "the business war" and was not worth the sacrifice "of one drop of workers blood" At the end of piece the candidate said, referring to the present conflicts in Afghanistan etc, "same carnage, same reasons for carnage". Now I think that's a pretty reasonable method of making a point when addressing a meeting organised by those who seek to stop war, it also demonstrates the SPGB's consistent attitude towards war.
In a following post you called the SPGB approach "patronizing", it's unfortunate that you found it so, but for some it's unavoidable because the SPGB refuses to lead anyone therefor we have to treat workers as they must be if we are to emancipate ourselves, as adults, as grown up, capable of living and thinking for ourselves.
As for nuance, we do broad brushstroke, primary colours and leave it to the critical thinking and imagination of our fellow workers to bring their own nuances.

Wow that backs up what I was saying almost to a tee.

Also the canidate was called Daniel Lambert. Dannysp. Hmmmmmm.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Fuck off. As much as I've been irritated by the squeegees, I'd rather chat with them any day over you.

Thread started off so well, mainly because of you. But ^ is the way u75, internet forums, get's you.

Though I agree that if these boards/U75 are anything to go by there is no hope. Selfish impotent nothingness rules here...

You seem like a decent socialist, stick with real people comrade.

Have a nice day.

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

By the way if the bloke who was the candidate is on here I would like to apologise for calling you an odd job. Whoever said it is right that I shouldn't get personal and I have no idea whether you are an odd job or not.

But I stick by all the political criticisms and the criticisms of how the politics came across i.e. outdated, abstract and patronising.

 

[dylans]

I just think the SPGB are hopelessly utopian. As well as having absolutely nothing to say except abstract lectures on why human nature makes socialism possible. On wars and revolutions, strikes and battles, real struggles across the world they say nothing.
In Bangkok they tell people to go home and become socialists. In greece they tell them to go home and erm, become socialists. That's it. Tell your friends to go home and become socialists. Read a pamphlet on on the abolishment of money.
That's it. Then vote for them.
Then when there is enough people we can have socialism.

Sorry guys.

Arguments such as these were used to oppose the suffragettes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Party_of_Great_Britain

During the Miner's Strike of 1984-5, the party walked a line between supporting the miners whilst simultaneously suggesting that they couldn't and wouldn't win

 

[robbo203]

It really doesn't. I appreciate nuance isn't your strong point but still.

The Socialist Party fights for socialist change - a democratic society run for the needs of all and not the profits of a few. We also fight, in our day-to-day campaigning, for every possible improvement for working-class people.
Do you see what they do there?

We then put forward a set of demands.

You should really brush up on your socialist politics, Robbo. We are, lest you forget, a Marxist party. Ergo, we accept the Marxian aim of... a moneyless, wageless, stateless, democratic, socialist society.

Anyway - why don't you tell us more about why the SPGB don't oppose the far right or fascism?

Either you are a bit slow on the uptake or you being delibereately obtuse. I am well aware that SPEW claims to stand for a "democratic society run for the needs of all and not the profits of a few". The Labour Party and the young liberal will no doubt say the same. My point really is about how you interpret this vague aim. By itself this aim means very little

I looked through your "what we stand for" and nowhere - I repeat, nowhere -did I see spelt out the "marxian aim of a moneyless , wageless, stateless , democratic socialist society". On the contrary, there are plenty of references to various reformist demands which all imply the retention of money and the employment system. You talk also about a "socialist government" which directly contradicts your claim that SPEW stands for a stateless socialist society.

I have asked you, not once, but many times for a simple statement from SPEW which shows clearly that it stands for a monyeless wageless stateless society. Dont give me this bullshit about you being a marxist and therefore I am supposed to take it for granted that that you stand for this. Why are you so reluctant to put your money where your mouth is and produce a simple link or quote from any of your publications. Is that too much to ask? Or could it be that you know full well you havent a leg to stand on.

As for your remark about the SPGB - dont be daft. Of course the SPGB opposes fascism and the far right. It opposes all organisations that support capitalism including the pseudo-marxist state capitalist Left such as SPEW