SPGB

[Proper Tidy]

I love the way that the SPGB being irrelevant and having a bad image is somehow everybody else's fault

 

[butchersapron]

This demonstrates exactly the point i was making. Instead of "critically examing the "political answers he was giving", telling us why you thought they were "totally out of touch and off the wall", you prefer instead to resort to self indulgent ad hominens and ridicule. The SPGB are summarily dismissed as a "bunch of nutters" when, by your own admission, you dont know much about them. Like we are really supposed to be persuaded by such hearsay. This is what I find so irritatingly arrogant. I wonder if you can even recall what the article was about which may have been highly relevant to the meeting in question for all I know.

Why does no one care?

 

[robbo203]

I love the way that the SPGB being irrelevant and having a bad image is somehow everybody else's fault

I love the way, when pressed to back up your claim that your (state capitalist) party "does not shy away from calling for socialism, for a "moneyless, wageless socialist commonwealth" but states "clearly in every publication that we stand for this" , can produce no evidence whatsoever in support. I think the irrelevance of what you party stands for to socialism is pretty apparent by now.

 

[Proper Tidy]

I love the way, when pressed to back up your claim that your (state capitalist) party "does not shy away from calling for socialism, for a "moneyless, wageless socialist commonwealth" but states "clearly in every publication that we stand for this" , can produce no evidence whatsoever in support. I think the irrelevance of what you party stands for to socialism is pretty apparent by now.

 

[butchersapron]

I love the way, when pressed to back up your claim that your (state capitalist) party "does not shy away from calling for socialism, for a "moneyless, wageless socialist commonwealth" but states "clearly in every publication that we stand for this" , can produce no evidence whatsoever in support. I think the irrelevance of what you party stands for to socialism is pretty apparent by now.

 

[robbo203]

Talking of "relevance", what the hell has this got to do with anything I said? I guess youve run out of words by the look of things. "Intellectual" and "bankrutpcy" are two words that spring to mind which you might wish mull over.


Who are these geezers anyway, eh?

 

[Proper Tidy]

Talking of "relevance", what the hell has this got to do with anything I said? I guess youve run out of words by the look of things. "Intellectual" and "bankrutpcy" are two words that spring to mind which you might wish mull over.


Who are these geezers anyway, eh?

 

[Gravediggers]

I love the way that the SPGB being irrelevant and having a bad image is somehow everybody else's fault

What is irrelevant and having a bad image is typical assertions like this. If the SPGB are irrelevant and have a bad image how do you explain the reasoning behind you putting up this thread. Indeed, one can assume you thought that what the SPGB have to say is totally relevant despite the style or image it portrays.

The truth is the SPGB arguments for a socialist revolution are in total opposition to what Trotskyist's like yourself espouse and found them to be fatally flawed in relation to relevance and image. In both instances they are historically outdated in due to them being based on a stage in history which no longer appertains.

For instance, despite observations to the contrary Trotskyist's insist on projecting the dictatorship of the proletariat has the image of the future. Their reasoning being it is going to be a dictatorship of democracy! And you expect the workers to be taken in by this hogwash. Dream on!

 

[Proper Tidy]

 

[butchersapron]

You're sick gd.

It's not funny when clowns like you front for the case - with spgb approval.

 

[JWH]

The SPGB are summarily dismissed as a "bunch of nutters" when, by your own admission, you dont know much about them.

OK - how many times should s/he listen to an SPGB candidate reading newspaper articles from 1914 and giving unhelpful answers before s/he is allowed to dismiss them as a crank?

Aren't you essentially arguing that the SPGB shouldn't be judged by its representatives?

 

[robbo203]

OK - how many times should s/he listen to an SPGB candidate reading newspaper articles from 1914 and giving unhelpful answers before s/he is allowed to dismiss them as a crank?

Aren't you essentially arguing that the SPGB shouldn't be judged by its representatives?

I am interested in what was actually said rather than than who or how it was said. That's my point. Capitalist politics is essentially the triumph of style over substance and observations about the SPGB such as have been made on this thread typically reflect this. Reading from a newspaper article does not make you a "nutter" particularly if the theme was pertinent - though we were not told what the article was about , merely the fact that it was read, which really says it all for me and suggests a somewhat narrow-minded inflexible conservative view of politics - that it has got to conform to a particular style or convention. In any case, as I said, you dont judge the perspective of an organisation by the mannerisms of one individual, nor can you generalise from that one individual, the mannerisms of others in the organisation.

This whole thing, it seems to me, reflects an unhealthy focus on personalities within capitalist politics and the undemocratic concept of leadership. Like it really matters that Cameron or Clegg or Brown are suave, adept at argument, decisive and strong willed. The hell it does. Capitalism imposes its own requirements on whoever attempts to administer it and this is one of many insights the SPGB has brought to UK politics

 

[frogwoman]

To be honest every single person from the SPGB I've seen who's ever posted on here or who I've ever met on demos has been a complete fucking loon.

 

[Gravediggers]

Is
> this a photo you would consider more appropriate to modern conditions?
>
>

>
> Or maybe this old geezer:
>
>

>

 

[butchersapron]

To be honest every single person from the SPGB I've seen who's ever posted on here or who I've ever met on demos has been a complete fucking loon.

That's what's annoying me - my experience has been the exact opposite.

 

[frogwoman]

I have looked at their website and they do have some worthwhile things to say - and i can't believe that ALL members of the spgb are like this given what you said about them ... but they are really shooting themselves in the foot here

 

[JWH]

Capitalist politics is essentially the triumph of style over substance and observations about the SPGB such as have been made on this thread typically reflect this...suggests a somewhat narrow-minded inflexible conservative view of politics - that it has got to conform to a particular style or convention.

Does this explain why the SPGB does so abysmally at elections - it wants to compete in the capitalist electoral circus but doesn't want to learn how to juggle?

Or is just that the "particular style or convention" of not being a crank, loon or nutter an unreasonable stretch for the SPGB?

 

[butchersapron]

I have looked at their website and they do have some worthwhile things to say - and i can't believe that ALL members of the spgb are like this given what you said about them ... but they are really shooting themselves in the foot here

It's absurd isn't it? There are other SPBG members on here who don't do this stuff though - i've been on their wsm emalil discussion list for 10+ years now, and have had many a good debate. They're really not all like this.

 

[Proper Tidy]

You'll notice Peter Taaffe isn't dressed as an Edwardian though. Mind you, it is an, ahem, unusual shirt.

 

[Gravediggers]

To be honest every single person from the SPGB I've seen who's ever posted on here or who I've ever met on demos has been a complete fucking loon.

I can only assume from such assertions that you have a compulsion for looking at yourself in a mirror? However, I suspect that every encounter with the SPGB has been a put down for Troskyism which also questioned your class consciousness and political identity? A constant state of denial is not good for your emotional wellbeing, perhaps you need a diagnoses?

 

[Proper Tidy]

I can only assume from such assertions that you have a compulsion for looking at yourself in a mirror? However, I suspect that every encounter with the SPGB has been a put down for Troskyism which also questioned your class consciousness and political identity? A constant state of denial is not good for your emotional wellbeing, perhaps you need a diagnoses?

Here's a tip, GD.

Not everybody else is a Trot.

 

[butchersapron]

I can only assume from such assertions that you have a compulsion for looking at yourself in a mirror? However, I suspect that every encounter with the SPGB has been a put down for Troskyism which also questioned your class consciousness and political identity? A constant state of denial is not good for your emotional wellbeing, perhaps you need a diagnoses?

Come and see the vanguardism inherent in the parties elevated consciousness.

 

[dylans]

Just had a look at the SPGB website and I have a couple of questions.

It is dangerous and futile to follow those who support violence by workers against the armed force of the state. Violent revolution has sometimes meant different faces in the capitalist class, always meant dead workers, and never meant the liberation of the working class. Unless workers organize consciously and politically and take control over the state machinery, including its armed forces, the state will be ensured a bloody victory.

So when the state uses force to arrest workers, break up strikes, shoot demonsrators and crush all opposition,(as it will), how do you propose workers defend themselves?

Political democracy is the greatest tool (next to its labour-power) that the working class has at its disposal. When the majority of workers support socialism, so-called "revolutionary" war will not be required. The real revolution is for workers to stop following leaders, to start understanding why society functions as it does and to start thinking for themselves.

So you envisage socialism as possible without a fight for state power? The workers organise politically and the state is expected to do what? Say "fair enough" and hand over power to the working class?

 

[Gravediggers]

It's absurd isn't it? There are other SPBG members on here who don't do this stuff though - i've been on their wsm emalil discussion list for 10+ years now, and have had many a good debate. They're really not all like this.

Butchers I totally agree with you that the WSM Forum is a different ball game to what you have on urban75 http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/forum.html . On the WSM Forum the posters themselves, including yourself I suspect, will not tolerate the slagging off, insults, misquotes, constant assertions, deliberate, bullying, etc, which is a common feature on this board. In fact the wsm moderator only steps in when necessary, for the posters have imposed their own style of self-discipline. Which means in effect, butchers, you employ a different style of posting there than you do here. Calling the kettle black in this respect I gather.

Having said that the SPGB membership is a microcosm of society at large and you would expect that to be reflected here. We are well known for calling a spade a spade and this thread is not exactly a dinner party full of polite conversation, is it. Grrrrr.

 

[frogwoman]

I can only assume from such assertions that you have a compulsion for looking at yourself in a mirror? However, I suspect that every encounter with the SPGB has been a put down for Troskyism which also questioned your class consciousness and political identity? A constant state of denial is not good for your emotional wellbeing, perhaps you need a diagnoses?

how do you know if i'm a trotskyist or not?

 

[Gravediggers]

how do you know if i'm a trotskyist or not?

I don't but I assumed that given the past postings chucked at the SPGB by the followers of Trotskyism your bland assertion reflected a similar political affiliation. If I assumed wrongly my apologies.

But my advice regarding your emotional wellbeing still stands.

 

[butchersapron]

I don't but I assumed that given the past postings chucked at the SPGB by the followers of Trotskyism your bland assertion reflected a similar political affiliation. If I assumed wrongly my apologies.

But my advice regarding your emotional wellbeing still stands.

You really don't know that you've been arguing with a single trotskysist? One.

 

[Proper Tidy]

I don't but I assumed that given the past postings chucked at the SPGB by the followers of Trotskyism your bland assertion reflected a similar political affiliation. If I assumed wrongly my apologies.

But my advice regarding your emotional wellbeing still stands.

Hang on, me aside most of your critics have been anarchists/libertarian socialists (from what I can gather)

 

[JWH]

I'm not sure if I qualify as a critic or just a guttersnipe, but if I can be certain about one thing: I'm not a Trotskyist.

 

[Gravediggers]

Hang on, me aside most of your critics have been anarchists/libertarian socialists (from what I can gather)

And dennisr?