Sound Engineering Declared Grumpiest Profession In The World

[free spirit]

For the reggae stuff it's more about eqing it differently, same with techno, drum & bass etc give it a flat EQ and all the Dj's got to attempt to work around that is bass, mid, treble. Much better to have the PA tuned properly via a decent EQ to work with the music better IME.

But also the kit has to be able to handle it.

So I can see the point behind specialist rigs - no point having fuck loads of subs for a techno rig when so little of the music needs that frequency range, compared to reggae or drum and bass. Techno played on the valve sound system with their standard EQs wouldn't sound right

It's probably different on a set up where there's also a sound engineer mixing the band with their own eq on each channel or something

 

[pesh]

Some people would say DnB played on the valve sound system doesn't sound right either

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Valve is loud. That's about it

 

[ringo]

If I'm the system tech I don't give a fuck "how it's supposed to sound". I'll give you a PA with as flat a frequency response as I can that can produce a dB level appropriate to the venue. What you send me will be what comes out of the speakers. The idea that certain PA brands suit one style more than another is (IMO) bollocks.

What you hear as "good for reggae' I hear as "a big pile of old scoop bins and a shitload of awful piezo tweeters stacked together in an unholy mess" If you want that, go hire a PA from a reggae sound system crew. Just don't moan when a "pro" PA company gives you something better

You've just precisely proved my point. Anyone who doesn't give a fuck how it's supposed to sound should be sacked on the spot. If you have no respect for the music and it's tradition or how the producer and musicians or audience want to it to sound you shouldn't be allowed anywhere near it.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

For the reggae stuff it's more about eqing it differently, same with techno, drum & bass etc give it a flat EQ and all the Dj's got to attempt to work around that is bass, mid, treble. Much better to have the PA tuned properly via a decent EQ to work with the music better IME.

But also the kit has to be able to handle it.

So I can see the point behind specialist rigs - no point having fuck loads of subs for a techno rig when so little of the music needs that frequency range, compared to reggae or drum and bass. Techno played on the valve sound system with their standard EQs wouldn't sound right

It's probably different on a set up where there's also a sound engineer mixing the band with their own eq on each channel or something

Where most people go wrong is trying to tune/eq a system to the music. You tune a PA to the room it's in...

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

You've just precisely proved my point. Anyone who doesn't give a fuck how it's supposed to sound should be sacked on the spot. If you have no respect for the music and it's tradition or how the producer and musicians or audience want to it to sound you shouldn't be allowed anywhere near it.

But that's my point - I can't possibly know every genre out there or their "traditions". My job as a system tech is to provide a blank canvas for artists to do their thing and that everyone in the audience hears the same sound. For DJ's this means whatever they send will be made louder. For bands it means their FOH engineer can apply whatever musical signature the band is paying him for.

 

[ringo]

But that's my point - I can't possibly know every genre out there or their "traditions". My job as a system tech is to provide a blank canvas for artists to do their thing. For DJ's this means whatever they send will be made louder. For bands it means their FOH engineer can apply whatever musical signature the band is paying him for.

That's a cop out. If you don't know how the music is supposed to sound you should find out and learn your job or step away. If you can't or won't play a style of music the way it's supposed to sound it's an insult to the audience and the producers. It will annoy those who know and never encourage the curious to delve further into it. That alone can turn a decent event into a shit event. It's a massive insult to music, the thing you're supposed to love if you do your job.

Anyway you're being a touch disingenuous, you do know how reggae is supposed to sound, you just don't want to tune the system that way because it's not how you think it should sound.

 

[Citizen66]

That's a cop out. If you don't know how the music is supposed to sound you should find out and learn your job or step away. If you can't or won't play a style of music the way it's supposed to sound it's an insult to the audience and the producers. It will annoy those who know and never encourage the curious to delve further into it. That alone can turn a decent event into a shit event. It's a massive insult to music, the thing you're supposed to love if you do your job.

Anyway you're being a touch disingenuous, you do know how reggae is supposed to sound, you just don't want to tune the system that way because it's not how you think it should sound.

Wrong. You work with the room. The EQing of the music should have been done in production.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

That's a cop out. If you don't know how the music is supposed to sound you should find out and learn your job or step away.

So I should know how every possible genre of music is "supposed" to sound? Get real

If you can't or won't play a style of music the way it's supposed to sound it's an insult to the audience and the producers.

I'm not playing anything That's the job of the DJ or the band.

It's a massive insult to music, the thing you're supposed to love if you do your job.

Love music, hate musicians mostly

Anyway you're being a touch disingenuous, you do know how reggae is supposed to sound, you just don't want to tune the system that way because it's not how you think it should sound.

No, I think it should sound however the DJ or a band/their engineer if they have one thinks it should.

 

[ringo]

Wrong. You work with the room. The EQing of the music should have been done in production.

That's just not true for reggae. It is produced to be played on a specific type of sound system with specific EQ'ing. That's exactly why we use bespoke hand built reggae pre-amps on reggae sound systems. This tradition is 60 odd years old and should be respected. A reggae sound man will tune the system to play well in that style in the room being used.

 

[killer b]

It's a massive insult to music, the thing you're supposed to love if you do your job.

This is sound engineers we're talking about isn't it? IME they don't really like music. I did a bit of tech gophering years ago and the sound guys tested their systems with Celine Dion.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

In other words, if a promoter has hired in a decent professional PA system for a reggae event it's their fuckup, not the system techs. They should have hired a reggae sound system instead.

 

[ringo]

In other words, if a promoter has hired in a decent professional PA system for a reggae event it's their fuckup, not the system techs. They should have hired a reggae sound system instead.

I think we can agree there

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

This is sound engineers we're talking about isn't it? IME they don't really like music.

Except this isn't really true, because:

the sound guys tested their systems with Celine Dion.

The track(s) you use to test a PA aren't chosen due to their artistic merit or your personal tastes. You use stuff that is good for identifying problem areas, which usually means well produced/clean etc. Hence a lot of Steely Dan

 

[killer b]

yeah, that's what they said. there's plenty of clean, well produced music that isn't Celine or Steely though.

 

[Citizen66]

This is sound engineers we're talking about isn't it? IME they don't really like music. I did a bit of tech gophering years ago and the sound guys tested their systems with Celine Dion.

They're after certain signal responses, not the style.

e2a: frequency, even.

 

[killer b]

They all loved the Dave Matthews Band too. Dirty bastards.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

They're after certain signal responses, not the style.

Quite. My current PA setup set is:

Susanne Vega - Toms Diner
Robert Palmer - Addicted To Love
Lyle Lovett - Rise Up
Tom Petty - Running Down A Dream
Indiana - Solo Dancing

 

[High Voltage]

I'll just throw this in for general comment - it's a quote from a google search of What is EQ'ing - I don't know but this made a lot of sense to me - and a question I'd then ask of ringo - why isn't reggae recorded "right" in the first place?

I'll add this, from a musicians viewpoint..
It's best to record it right, FIRST, so don't have to EQ much later.
Most producers hate to EQ later, (it's called "fix it in the mix") if they don't have to.
That's one reason why artists/producers/engineers etc spend SO much time and money, setting up the room, the amps, the mics, mics placement, guitars, etc, in the 1st place, so they need as little EQ later, as possible.

If you have a bad sound/recording, there is only so much you can do, to "EQ" it later, you just can't fix, a bad sound.

 

[killer b]

Quite. My current PA setup set is:

Susanne Vega - Toms Diner
Robert Palmer - Addicted To Love
Lyle Lovett - Rise Up
Tom Petty - Running Down A Dream
Indiana - Solo Dancing

Why not have something good though?

 

[rutabowa]

hmm if you don't think (70s) reggae is recorded right then i think you need different ears, it is pretty much the peak of musical production and recording.

 

[rutabowa]

Why not have something good though?

maybe it would be a bit distracting from the job?

 

[killer b]

maybe they don't like music.

 

[rutabowa]

maybe they don't like music.

the one terrible sound engineer i have ever encountered was some guy who used to be in ozric tentacles.

 

[Orang Utan]

What is the problem that sound engineers have with reggae? Why don't they like sound systems?

 

[twentythreedom]

Tiresome spats aide, I actually find this thread quite interesting, as it highlights to me the gulf between the parts of the job most people know about (local pub/club type gigs) and the area very few people get to see (large scale touring shows).

At the pub end of the scale, yes, if I'm perfectly honest the stereotype of the grumpy, jaded, metal loving guitarist, will be encountered more often than not. It's a fun job but the pay is pretty crap, the hours are awful and you frequently have to deal with total arseholes. For every decent bad you get to mix there will be 10 others that are terrible and think that the rock star attitude comes before talent. And yes, at this level the term "engineer" is somewhat undeserved. "Sound Technician" might be more apt. You turn up, plug in a few bits, do a mix and then pack it all away and fuck off home. What sets the good ones apart at this level is those who can drop the grumpy act and learn a few people skills. Be friendly, try and help the idiot who doesn't know how to plug in his amp and do the best you can.

But at the other end it's a different world. I'm incredibly fortunate in that Ia lot of the time I'm able to make a living working with groups of people who are the best in the word at what they do. A large scale touring show nowadays is an incredibly complex and technologically advanced affair, utilising equipment that costs hundreds of thousands of pounds and requires an incredibly high level of technical skill to design and operate. Even before you get to the audio aspects the basic rigging of a large PA system requires a lot of planning to make it safe as you're hanging several tons of gear over peoples heads. Fuck it up and people will die. For this sort of stuff the "engineer" label is fully deserved. You are living in close proximity to others for potentially months at a time in a highly pressured environment, often running on very little sleep. A grumpy, surly type won't last 5 minutes.

Yes well you would say that, wouldn't you

 

[stethoscope]

Quite. My current PA setup set is:

Susanne Vega - Toms Diner
Robert Palmer - Addicted To Love
Lyle Lovett - Rise Up
Tom Petty - Running Down A Dream
Indiana - Solo Dancing

You're not using crusty old acetates to set up? I can see where you're going wrong

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

What is the problem that sound engineers have with reggae? Why don't they like sound systems?

From a strictly engineering POV almost all of the traditional sound systems you see are terrible. A huge mess of boxes just chuck in a big pile. Uneven coverage for the room, lots of phase and cancelations issues and so on. Plus the wiring is often bad at best and downright dangerous at worst.

However that sonic mess has become the sound of the genre. I don't hate it, it just makes my tech OCD twitch

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Why not have something good though?

Because I'm not being paid to listen to stuff I like, those tracks are just tools. No different to the way a bricklayer views a trowel

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Yes well you would say that, wouldn't you