Should you expect parents to have email?

[PTK]

how old are you? ‘an electrical device’ is up there with Not The Nine O’Clock News’ ‘digital watch’

I am in my 60s. What would you call an "electrical device" and a "digital watch".

 

[8ball]

ha i don't work for anything like that. why you being angry like that? how do you know these cleaners and janitors don't have smart phones? I'm just describing what i have seen directly.

I’m not angry, that was a reaction to the interpretation of not having something in terms of some kind of ‘privilege’ as is the way of certain metropolitan publications.
I know the specific people I am describing don’t have smartphones or PC’s because I have spoken to them about it.

I think it is perfectly reasonable to use email for the purpose Shippy has described, I just think that it is not reasonable to expect to be able to use it for all parents with the expectation of a prompt response.

 

[Saul Goodman]

No, you would not. At the moment, my landline is connected to the telephone network directly. The proposed system would require it be connected to the network via a router. The router would have to be plugged in. Thus, if there was a power cut, my landline would not work. Ah, but there would be battery backup. So we would need a router with a battery backup. I have a router for internet access at the moment, but I would need to obtain a new one with battery backup. That seems rather wasteful.

However, if there was a power cut for longer than 24 hours (and the increasing frequency of extreme weather makes this more likely) people would have no phone connection at all (being unable to charge their mobiles).

Furthermore, cash machines, traffic lights, and railway signals would also need routers with battery backup. For these services all rely on current landline technology. That seems unnecessarily wasteful. It also makes them more vulnerable. There would be more to go wrong, and a prolonged power cut may knock them out.
Landlines are a good backup if your mobile fails, or cannot be charged. Mobiles are a good backup if your landline fails.

The situation is being created in which all telephonic communication could be cut off by a power cut.

I am unhappy about my landline being dependent upon a router that is more likely to break down than the existing system.

Furthermore, the new system will consume more electricity than is currently consumed.

The existing landline system is a simple, robust system. It is not progress to replace it with a more complicated, less robust system.

Openreach is rolling in profits, and it would be no problem for them to maintain the existing landline system.

No, you simply buy a mobile phone, like everyone else who's alive in this century.

 

[moochedit]

No, you would not. At the moment, my landline is connected to the telephone network directly. The proposed system would require it be connected to the network via a router. The router would have to be plugged in. Thus, if there was a power cut, my landline would not work. Ah, but there would be battery backup. So we would need a router with a battery backup. I have a router for internet access at the moment, but I would need to obtain a new one with battery backup. That seems rather wasteful.

However, if there was a power cut for longer than 24 hours (and the increasing frequency of extreme weather makes this more likely) people would have no phone connection at all (being unable to charge their mobiles).

Furthermore, cash machines, traffic lights, and railway signals would also need routers with battery backup. For these services all rely on current landline technology. That seems unnecessarily wasteful. It also makes them more vulnerable. There would be more to go wrong, and a prolonged power cut may knock them out.
Landlines are a good backup if your mobile fails, or cannot be charged. Mobiles are a good backup if your landline fails.

The situation is being created in which all telephonic communication could be cut off by a power cut.

I am unhappy about my landline being dependent upon a router that is more likely to break down than the existing system.

Furthermore, the new system will consume more electricity than is currently consumed.

The existing landline system is a simple, robust system. It is not progress to replace it with a more complicated, less robust system.

Openreach is rolling in profits, and it would be no problem for them to maintain the existing landline system.

I may be wrong but i doubt that traffic lights, cash machines etc are powered by the phone network. So they would stop working in a power cut regardless of the phone technology used.

My landline is cordless and has to be plugged into the mains presumably because the phone line doesn't have enough power to run it.

 

[rutabowa]

See when people say stuff like it only costs £7.50 a month I feel like they don't really understand what being properly poor is like.

I understand that people don't get it.

Yes fair enough, 7.50 is far from the cheapest phone plan but even a monthly regular, always paid 3.00 isn’t going to be possible for everyone. And the free WiFi network isn’t quite there yet. It just has to be though; particularly for families that a spread across the globe because of migration to be able to stay in touch, it has now become a vital part of their lives. That was it was why the “free WiFi for everyone” plan was a good (and realistic) policy

 

[rutabowa]

I think it is perfectly reasonable to use email for the purpose Shippy has described, I just think that it is not reasonable to expect to be able to use it for all parents with the expectation of a prompt response.

I wasn’t really talking about the OP before, I went on a tangent about accessibility to mobile internet devices and economics. As far as the op goes I pretty much agree with you. It is not about access though, it is about some parents just being difficult to contact

 

[Orang Utan]

I am in my 60s. What would you call an "electrical device" and a "digital watch".

a phone and a watch
I was referring to this sketch:

 

[MickiQ]

No, you would not. At the moment, my landline is connected to the telephone network directly. The proposed system would require it be connected to the network via a router. The router would have to be plugged in. Thus, if there was a power cut, my landline would not work. Ah, but there would be battery backup. So we would need a router with a battery backup. I have a router for internet access at the moment, but I would need to obtain a new one with battery backup. That seems rather wasteful.

However, if there was a power cut for longer than 24 hours (and the increasing frequency of extreme weather makes this more likely) people would have no phone connection at all (being unable to charge their mobiles).

Furthermore, cash machines, traffic lights, and railway signals would also need routers with battery backup. For these services all rely on current landline technology. That seems unnecessarily wasteful. It also makes them more vulnerable. There would be more to go wrong, and a prolonged power cut may knock them out.
Landlines are a good backup if your mobile fails, or cannot be charged. Mobiles are a good backup if your landline fails.

The situation is being created in which all telephonic communication could be cut off by a power cut.

I am unhappy about my landline being dependent upon a router that is more likely to break down than the existing system.

Furthermore, the new system will consume more electricity than is currently consumed.

The existing landline system is a simple, robust system. It is not progress to replace it with a more complicated, less robust system.

Openreach is rolling in profits, and it would be no problem for them to maintain the existing landline system.

I don't want to seem condescending but you clearly don't really get how any of this stuff works. You will probably have to get a new handset but that is all. (assuming your existing one doesn't already support the function) you won't need a router and unless you buy a cordless one then you won't need to plug it in.
Cordless ones don't plug into the mains because they need power to operate the phone line they need it to run the radio that connects the base unit to the handset.
That and charge the batteries in the handset, there is enough power in the phone line to charge a few rechargeable batteries but that offers too much opportunity for people to nick electric off the phone company.
As for Network Rail they have never used the public phone system they have cables running alongside their tracks. They used to have major problems with people nicking them for the copper but the move to fibre has sorted that.

 

[PTK]

a phone and a watch
I was referring to this sketch:

The "electrical device" I was referring to was a router. The planned system will entail landlines using a router, which will have to be plugged in. Therefore it is a step backward. It means that my means of talking to people electronically will be more complicated and more fallible.

What would you call an analogue watch?

 

[rutabowa]

It is just a done deal tbh. internet is a lot more inclusive than landline phones were, anyway.

Broadband universal service - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[PTK]

I don't want to seem condescending but you clearly don't really get how any of this stuff works. You will probably have to get a new handset but that is all. (assuming your existing one doesn't already support the function) you won't need a router and unless you buy a cordless one then you won't need to plug it in.
Cordless ones don't plug into the mains because they need power to operate the phone line they need it to run the radio that connects the base unit to the handset.
That and charge the batteries in the handset, there is enough power in the phone line to charge a few rechargeable batteries but that offers too much opportunity for people to nick electric off the phone company.
As for Network Rail they have never used the public phone system they have cables running alongside their tracks. They used to have major problems with people nicking them for the copper but the move to fibre has sorted that.

I base my comments upon the information in the article on the BBC News website, according to which the phone will have to go through a router that will need battery backup.

Internet revamp for the humble landline

The UK plans to make all landlines into internet-based connections over the next few years.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Orang Utan]

The "electrical device" I was referring to was a router. The planned system will entail landlines using a router, which will have to be plugged in. Therefore it is a step backward. It means that my means of talking to people electronically will be more complicated and more fallible.

What would you call an analogue watch?

a watch

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

I'm surprised so many people think that using email is not a reasonable request.

I'm aware that not everyone uses email but a quick Google says that 86% of people use it.

Internet access – households and individuals, Great Britain - Office for National Statistics

Internet access in Great Britain, including how many people have internet, how they access it and what they use it to do.

www.ons.gov.uk

I'd have thought that if you were sending you child yo a college you might reasonably expect the occasional email.

I don't think it's an unreasonable request, ie to ask for an email address, if they have one, but I do think it's an unreasonable expectation that they ought to provide an email address and ought to be contactable by email.

 

[MickiQ]

I base my comments upon the information in the article on the BBC News website, according to which the phone will have to go through a router that will need battery backup.

Internet revamp for the humble landline

The UK plans to make all landlines into internet-based connections over the next few years.

www.bbc.co.uk

OK read this and also found the Ofcom discussion paper on it and this is my take accept or reject as you will :-

BT want to get rid of the ancient cruddy copper PSTN network and replace it with shiny new digital stuff, They've actually done most of it anyway, the core networks have been fibre for years, it's getting rid of the last leg to people homes that they're doing now. Lots of people are already on digital especially if they live on new(ish) housing estates or in big cities and towns. The holdouts are in the backwaters.
Replacing the final bit of cable is going to vary on where you live. If you live in an urban area chances are they can run a coax to your house from the nearest junction box which will not need mains electricity in your house (mine doesn't). If they have to run a fibre cable across three miles of open field to get to you then it will. But it won't be one size fits all.
BT (and the various internet companies that lease its lines) are working on the not unreasonable assumption that everyone bar my mum has a mobile these days but Ofcom are doing their job and have decreed that the phone companies must at their expense provide a backup method for the few Luddites that don't. VM's proposal (but not final plan) is to put a battery in the wall socket that will power it for up to 24hrs (and in reality probably a lot longer)
Important caveat: lithium batteries will degrade over time and I would hope that Ofcom make them monitor them and swap out duds.
Saying you will need to plug your phone into the router is just lazy jounalism to be honest, what you will need is voice to digital conversion. The circuitry to do this is tiny (mobile phones and the dreaded Alexa's do this) and it can go anywhere, the router, the handset or the wall socket. I suspect it will go in the latter since putting it in the router or handset seems daft since the phone company can't guarantee the customer won't swap these devices out. You don't even need an actual phone with VoIP, my previous employer just installed software on all our laptops and gave us a headset. I could actually take my landline number with me wherever I was.

As for non phones:-
Traffic lights do not depend on phone connections, they're controlled by timers, cameras and buttons pushed by pedestrians. Some traffic lights in place like London are remote controlled so their timer patterns can be varied to aid the smooth flow of traffic during rush hour. They still work without their remote connections but just as ordinary traffic lights. These aren't going to be a problem to upgrade since smart traffic lights get put in big cities with good fibre networks not out in the Cotswolds.

Cash machines are almost all on fibre networks as well especially those in bank branches, shopping centres etc. There is a potential issue with those in remote country pubs and shops (and POS machines) if they are on dial up networks. There is a possibility that this might be a final push for some providers to just get rid of these machines (remote ones are often unprofitable)

Things like remote alarms etc are only going to be a problem if they wire directly into the phone network bypassing the master socket but this is going to be down to the company providing them to sort out.

Demanding BT continue to maintain PSTN forever is just not really an option I'm afraid. The cost will continue to go up (not least as BT runs out of engineers with the necessary skills), the number of people using it will alway go down and the scenarios you describe are not that plausible. How many places bar the wilds of Scotland and Wales loose power for days on end (which will likely take out exchanges as well)
While I like the idea of forcing big companies to spend their profits on projects of value to the community, this isn't it. The money would be better spent on improving rural broadband which this will in fact do.

 

[moochedit]

OK read this and also found the Ofcom discussion paper on it and this is my take accept or reject as you will :-

BT want to get rid of the ancient cruddy copper PSTN network and replace it with shiny new digital stuff, They've actually done most of it anyway, the core networks have been fibre for years, it's getting rid of the last leg to people homes that they're doing now. Lots of people are already on digital especially if they live on new(ish) housing estates or in big cities and towns. The holdouts are in the backwaters.
Replacing the final bit of cable is going to vary on where you live. If you live in an urban area chances are they can run a coax to your house from the nearest junction box which will not need mains electricity in your house (mine doesn't). If they have to run a fibre cable across three miles of open field to get to you then it will. But it won't be one size fits all.
BT (and the various internet companies that lease its lines) are working on the not unreasonable assumption that everyone bar my mum has a mobile these days but Ofcom are doing their job and have decreed that the phone companies must at their expense provide a backup method for the few Luddites that don't. VM's proposal (but not final plan) is to put a battery in the wall socket that will power it for up to 24hrs (and in reality probably a lot longer)
Important caveat: lithium batteries will degrade over time and I would hope that Ofcom make them monitor them and swap out duds.
Saying you will need to plug your phone into the router is just lazy jounalism to be honest, what you will need is voice to digital conversion. The circuitry to do this is tiny (mobile phones and the dreaded Alexa's do this) and it can go anywhere, the router, the handset or the wall socket. I suspect it will go in the latter since putting it in the router or handset seems daft since the phone company can't guarantee the customer won't swap these devices out. You don't even need an actual phone with VoIP, my previous employer just installed software on all our laptops and gave us a headset. I could actually take my landline number with me wherever I was.

As for non phones:-
Traffic lights do not depend on phone connections, they're controlled by timers, cameras and buttons pushed by pedestrians. Some traffic lights in place like London are remote controlled so their timer patterns can be varied to aid the smooth flow of traffic during rush hour. They still work without their remote connections but just as ordinary traffic lights. These aren't going to be a problem to upgrade since smart traffic lights get put in big cities with good fibre networks not out in the Cotswolds.

Cash machines are almost all on fibre networks as well especially those in bank branches, shopping centres etc. There is a potential issue with those in remote country pubs and shops (and POS machines) if they are on dial up networks. There is a possibility that this might be a final push for some providers to just get rid of these machines (remote ones are often unprofitable)

Things like remote alarms etc are only going to be a problem if they wire directly into the phone network bypassing the master socket but this is going to be down to the company providing them to sort out.

Demanding BT continue to maintain PSTN forever is just not really an option I'm afraid. The cost will continue to go up (not least as BT runs out of engineers with the necessary skills), the number of people using it will alway go down and the scenarios you describe are not that plausible. How many places bar the wilds of Scotland and Wales loose power for days on end (which will likely take out exchanges as well)
While I like the idea of forcing big companies to spend their profits on projects of value to the community, this isn't it. The money would be better spent on improving rural broadband which this will in fact do.

Yeah as you say lots of different ways of providing a "landline" phone service after the switchover if it is wanted. At work we use special voip phones. These can either plug by ethernet cable into a switch or router (They can even get power over the ethernet cable if the switch is a powered one). Or they can connect to the router by wifi (obviously they need plugging into mains if that option is used). So for those home users with broadband that want a "landline" thats another option.

I suspect the vast majority will just use mobiles though.

 

[8ball]

a watch

Call me a bleeding-heart wokester trendy snowflake scold if you like, but I’ve taken to calling all watches watches.

 

[Orang Utan]

Call me a bleeding-heart wokester trendy snowflake scold if you like, but I’ve taken to calling all watches watches.

yes me too, i’ve always called a watch a watch and never felt the need to distinguish between digital and analogue

 

[8ball]

yes me too, i’ve always called a watch a watch and never felt the need to distinguish between digital and analogue

…except self-winding watches, which I call wankatrons…