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    Lazy Llama

should thick people be allowed to vote?

trevhagl said:
The thing is even the ignorant parts of the working class would feel better off under a progressive govt - they just can't bring themselves to acknowledge it because the Sun has told them that lefties are evil , the queen is wonderful , dolies are all scrounging charvers directly robbing their wage packets etc, and ID cards are marvellous
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so what sthe enlightened middleclass excuse then?
 
El Jefe said:
Thing is, trev, if you're going to fight for the liberation from oppression of the working classes, you don't get to decide which ones, you know.
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If you're going to fight for someone - you've gotta have some respect for them firstly.
You don't seem to have any respect for them at all.

Like El Jefe says selectivism is dangerous - - do that and you end up like ummm........ Hitler. :hmm:
 
I guess it's something a lot of lefty types go through at some stage or another. It's one of the stages on the path, like anger, denial, exasperation, and marching. One day you look around you and wonder why the very people who stand to benefit from socialism appear to swallow all the lies and bullshit. Oh! the ironing. Time after time blokes in the pub chase you out following a table thumping argument where they threaten to put in hospital for bad mouthing Queen Mags; no matter how many times you explain it they still persist in calling Tony Blair a socialist when bitching about the state; and of course the bizarre addiction to the tabloid press.

Then you realise! OMG, I hate them. They're thick, idiotic plebs, who don't deserve even the smattering of democracy they're allowed.

But do not let that turn you towards bitterness, young padawan. That way lies the dark side. Once you have written them off, you've really written off the working classes. Now, even if that doesn't make you say fuck it and becoming a boss, it will lead you to acting on their behalf. Because you know better than them. They need protecting from themselves. And once you think like that, well, the next stop is New Labour, and we all know how that turns out.
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@Bluey
Can I say that is an excellent post, sometimes, perhaps too infrequently this board does come up with gems that make reading it worthwhile, I also think you are bang on the nail about the trajectory of many former leftists to the Blairite wing
 
El Jefe said:
Trev:

my late father was a lovely bloke, couldn't do enough for you, good heart, kind and sincere. He did some shitty jobs (just before he died he worked cash in hand in a fast food restaurant), but he read the Daily Express and he voted Tory. He wasn't very political at all, it just seemed to make sense to him. I'd try and argue with him, but it didn't go well.

So let's try two different approaches to resolving this: one would be to explain why he's wrong, and gain his understanding and support.
The other would be to consider him contemptible, the lowest of the low.

One of those approaches might fail and would certainly be a long struggle, but is the class conscious thing to do. Born of genuine understanding of the class struggle and a genuine concern for those who've fallen for the lies of capitalism.

The other is the teenage temper tantrum of a cartoon ciderpunk with the compassion of a pomegranite.

I'll let you riddle your way through that one.
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I know someone a friend in the writing group, who you would have thought, it would have benefitted him to vote labour over tory, but is a lifelong tory. I kind of doubt he really follows exactly what they stand for these days. He's an oldie type of one-nation tory.

We have arguments about it, but I certainly don't have him down as 'thick' or 'scum'. Misguided, maybe.
 
trevhagl said:
What, like shagging birds and drinking etc? At least they have a more sensible approach to welfare than the current govt (see the song "Working")
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aaaah great song "Working" Trev, I've been running around like a blue arsed fly myself today! I've been doing it for more than a score in my hand too.

There's almost as much venom in this thread as your classic "Does anybody know anything about EEB thread?"

There was much more fun in that one though!

Stupid people should be allowed to vote. Only after a quiet word Mugabe style outside the polling both.
 
El Jefe said:
Trev:

my late father was a lovely bloke, couldn't do enough for you, good heart, kind and sincere. He did some shitty jobs (just before he died he worked cash in hand in a fast food restaurant), but he read the Daily Express and he voted Tory. He wasn't very political at all, it just seemed to make sense to him. I'd try and argue with him, but it didn't go well.

So let's try two different approaches to resolving this: one would be to explain why he's wrong, and gain his understanding and support.
The other would be to consider him contemptible, the lowest of the low.

One of those approaches might fail and would certainly be a long struggle, but is the class conscious thing to do. Born of genuine understanding of the class struggle and a genuine concern for those who've fallen for the lies of capitalism.

The other is the teenage temper tantrum of a cartoon ciderpunk with the compassion of a pomegranite.

I'll let you riddle your way through that one.
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Still waiting for your response to this one, trev. Let's have you :)
 
El Jefe said:
They're still working class, and they're still oppressed. Rather than trying to challenge their ideas, to try and overthrow false consciousness and the like, you're just going to treat them with contempt.
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Is it any less contemptuous to assume they are "suffering from false consciousness?"
 
Darios said:
Is it any less contemptuous to assume they are "suffering from false consciousness?"
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It's not necessarily my viewpoint, it is however the Marxist one. The point I was making was from within a leftist perspective, which presumably is the one Trev positions his 'argument' within.
 
trevhagl said:
You gotta pass a driving test before you can drive a car so do you think people should have to do a basic test before they can vote?

I've seen it all me, fish wives in pubs voting for the candidate who looks the most 'dishy', and working class people voting Tory and buying the Sun...
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I agree, the first person to be off the register is you.
 
josef1878 said:
aaaah great song "Working" Trev, I've been running around like a blue arsed fly myself today! I've been doing it for more than a score in my hand too.

There's almost as much venom in this thread as your classic "Does anybody know anything about EEB thread?"

There was much more fun in that one though!

Stupid people should be allowed to vote. Only after a quiet word Mugabe style outside the polling both.
Click to expand...

Them were the days!!
 
trevhagl said:
Actually agree with you , i just can't help venting spleen
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So you DON'T think the working class TOry voters are the lowest of the low?

Right.


Can you let us know in future when you're 'venting spleen' (trans: talking absolute horseshit) and when (you believe) you're talking sense?

Could save a lot of confusion
 
El Jefe said:
It's not necessarily my viewpoint, it is however the Marxist one. The point I was making was from within a leftist perspective, which presumably is the one Trev positions his 'argument' within.
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Not being unnecessarily pedantic, but it's one of the marxist viewpoints, and one of the cruder ones at that.
 
trevhagl said:
You gotta pass a driving test before you can drive a car so do you think people should have to do a basic test before they can vote?..
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I think people should have to take a basic course before they can vote. It would have a bit of history in it, current affairs, etc. Maybe logic. Pretty basic, but no pass, no vote.:)
 
El Jefe said:
OK, maybe I was being simplistic. But doesn't pretty much every strand offer something similar: false conciousness, ISAs, hegemony, etc etc
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Sure there are more sophisticated models that share certain assumptions with the 'false conciousness' theory, but the specific term 'false consciousness' also usually entails a certain formm of elitest political analysis and organisation which doesn't appear so strongly in any of those other concepts you mention. It was just that specific term that i was pointing out wasn't univerally accepted.

(That said, personally i'd reject the others too and argue that the conciousness model of orthodox marxism has been amongst it's biggest 'mistakes' of the last 100 years. There are marxist currents that reject that model as well though, even marxists who argue that Marx had never intended to promote such a model).
 
Think of it as a moratorium. You can take all the cheap shots you want, and I won't shut you down like the cops at an illegal Chinatown poker game.:)
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
I think people should have to take a basic course before they can vote. It would have a bit of history in it, current affairs, etc. Maybe logic. Pretty basic, but no pass, no vote.:)
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Hmmm, I'm sure your aware of how literacy tests were used in the deep south.
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
Think of it as a moratorium. You can take all the cheap shots you want, and I won't shut you down like the cops at an illegal Chinatown poker game.:)
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Nice edit.

is that was you usually do then, Johnny? Shut me down? Must have missed that in all the smoke and excitement.
 
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