cesare
shady's dreams ♥
It's the double bluff ones that piss me off
shit MANarchists say
- Thread starter DrRingDing
- Start date
Is it? I was thinking about this earlier, in the context of this discussion.
Whatever field people are in nowadays, a basic understanding of equality/ diversity/ inclusion is taken to be a good thing. Children at school are taught not to discriminate or use discriminatory language. In science, female participation is beginning to be taken seriously. It's not controversial. But in the political arena, call it identity politics, or privilege and suddenly it seems to be. I don't really get it.
In my view it's about participation, being polite and respectful. I think people need to be careful with these concepts, but it doesn't mean they're not useful if you need to have a bit of a meta discussion or build a framework. Maybe they're just badly handled and badly used. I don't know. I don't have much contact with this sort of thing.
I'm surprised by how controversial this seems to be.
Although also, having said this, I'm not sure that making these things explicit is a sign of a healthy culture. We live in interesting times, maybe,
Just dip in and out for the bunfights.
Vintage Paw
dead stare and computer glare
I might be wrong (I often am) but I think some of the 'controversy' side of it is couched in an understanding of the impact postmodernism had on politics, and the results of that we see today. So I don't think it's strictly a case of saying "pointing out that some people have a tougher time of it in X situation than others, because of their gender/ethnicity/orientation is a bad thing" because it's clearly not. My take on it is that it's more of a frustration that that tends to supersede a class-based politics that focuses on the systematic causes of various inequalities, and that broadly speaking identity politics has been taken up by 'the establishment' and used as a tool to sell us more stuff at the same time as keeping us divided. So it's not saying "don't be a feminist" but it's saying "don't be insular" - or something
Ensuring that there is feminist analysis in class politics, as well as that of race, disabled rights, whatever, is crucial, and it's often lacking (which is where the manarchism stuff comes in). Some think that privilege theory can help with that, and maybe it can to an extent, but there are dangers that it can be used to divide more than provide clarity. I see it more as ensuring you get it right, rather than saying don't do it at all. But I could be alone there, idk.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
That sounds as if you think this shouldn't be discussed?
I am sorry if it comes across like that, it wasn't supposed to. Just after that stuff with weeps and the WVM, story's battering on here and other recent stuff it just makes me frustrated that this kind of crap exists on an a forum that I thought knew better. It's sad that it is discussed IYSWIM, I am probably not explaining myself well.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
Those incidents throw this stuff into high relief of course. But I don't think refusing to engage with it is the answer, even if the result is a bit of discomfort all round.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
The problem with this line of argument is that the premise is accurate - ie that activists and activist groups don't exist outside of and above a sexist society, and this can lead to sexist behaviour. But the conclusions don't flow from it - ie therefore we need to import an incoherent and crude analysis of all oppression from American radical liberals.
weepiper
I fix the machines that fight climate change
No, me either. Nothing ever changed from letting people get away with it without challenging things. Sometimes it all gets a bit fucking much though.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
What incidents are you talking about? And what exactly about them makes what's being discussed here crap?
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
I know
Like water on a stone and it devalues the debate somewhat because people simply CBA to explain the same things again and again.
@nigel, I cited the incidents in the post you quoted.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
To be fair, this particular debate is about a phenomenon that we haven't really seen much of on the boards. It's an interesting discussion.
Vintage Paw
dead stare and computer glare
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
I think (and hopefully he'll put me right if I misrepresent him) that firky's feeling a bit dejected at some of the threads recently. There's also the possibility that he may have formed the impression in the first 6 pages that challenging sexism=identity politics and therefore not to be done anymore, and he thinks that's crap.
Edit @firky
I'm not going to get any further into this online, but if this is who i think it is then it was slightly more than sleeping with a few people and then not phoning them
edit - turns out not the same person
perhaps on similar lines and apologies for bringing assange up again but i think this is important.
the accusation, is that after a night spent arguing about assanges demands to have sex without a condom the women then woke up to him having sex with her without a condom. another allegation from the other woman is that assange, after being informed that any sexual relationship was over, got into bed with her and started rubbing his naked cock up against her, that he had earlier ripped open a condom during sex for whatever his own bizarre reasons and that he held a woman down and attempted to penetrate her whilst she was struggling to break free
galloway called this bad sexual etiquette, he either didnt bother to learn the facts of what had been alleged or he is openly defending sexual abuse
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Don't apologise. Just do it in an appropriate thread.
Das Uberdog
remembers the alamo
if it's relevent then it's relevent - i've already said why i thought it was related to the thread topic
ETA and to smokedout, i don't believe we are talking about the same person
ETA and to smokedout, i don't believe we are talking about the same person
well its a counterpoint to the thread - one of the reasons this manarchist identity shit has emerged (or is gaining traction) is because of people (allegedly) like assange and the largely male only chorus of support he's received from galloway and many others
its the wrong response, politically and practically, but there is no doubt that there is a problem and that there dont seem to be many other solutions being proposed to address it has created a vacuum that this crap had moved into
Das Uberdog
remembers the alamo
'manarchism', as an insult, has been a product of 'privilege theory' - an attack against 'privileged' attitudes within the anarchist movement (though as noted, most of the left has an equivalent)
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
Yeah, I get that. I'm trying to understand when it started, and if it means the same/similar as identity politics.
Das Uberdog
remembers the alamo
as i say, it's a product - identity politics has slowly morphed from being mainly to do with ethnic identities (Nigel noted that earlier) to one which has its most active elements in sexual/culture politics
eta sorry, re-read your initial post and did misunderstand it
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
Did identity politics morph into this, or was it imported into a hiatus ... I suppose is what I'm asking.
Das Uberdog
remembers the alamo
i think the left increasingly leant on identity politics as working class organisations declined, it's recruits increasingly came from those movements etc... i think it has been an evolution, but it appears to have accelerated in intensity and influence over the past 4-5 years (i don't remember coming across this stuff at all during the Stop the War era for example)
Das Uberdog
remembers the alamo
started a thread about something not totally unrelated a while back:
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...ty-politics-attitudes-of-progressives.293453/
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...ty-politics-attitudes-of-progressives.293453/
