shit MANarchists say

[cesare]

i think the left increasingly leant on identity politics as working class organisations declined, it's recruits increasingly came from those movements etc... i think it has been an evolution, but it appears to have accelerated in intensity and influence over the past 4-5 years (i don't remember coming across this stuff at all during the Stop the War era for example)

When you say "the left" I assume you mean generally rather than just anarchism.
It's an interesting perception, because if you had asked me the same question I would have said that the left had increasingly distanced themselves from identity politics in the past 4 or 5 years. I've felt there was an increasing disapproval.

 

[cesare]

started a thread about something not totally unrelated a while back:

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...ty-politics-attitudes-of-progressives.293453/

Ta, I'll have a read later, bit too late/tired to start on it now.

 

[Vintage Paw]

This identity politics stuff is riddled with contradictions. On the one hand you've got certain people refusing to be defined by their sexuality or gender, and then you've got people, in some cases the same people, telling everyone that because they're white or male or whatever that they are by nature oppressive towards others and that they are powerless to change their ways of their own free will.

I know I'm replying to a very early post in the thread, sorry, I've just been re-reading the whole thing and noticed it and wanted to reply.

While there's certainly a risk that elements of essentialism can result from what you're describing, my understanding of privilege politics (which by no means is exhaustive) is that the emphasis isn't on anyone being oppressive by nature (e.g. "you're white, that means you are automatically oppressive and want to keep other people down"), but in actually trying to come to a deeper understanding of the ways in which society's structure benefits certain people over others, and urging people to be aware of this so as to, I suppose at its most basic level, foster some sort of empathy*.

As there is with any kind of politics, there will be people who then use that in decidedly unhelpful ways. I remember reading an article where a guy was attempting to explain the various ways in which society effectively 'conditions' guys to expect certain things from women. It was, on the surface, a relatively progressive piece, trying to understand how men and women are positioned. But ultimately it came across as offering some kind of "we just can't help ourselves, ladies! It's not our fault' excuse. It was all structure, no agency, if you will.

*Of course, that's where it often ends. Empathy is important, but you need to do something with that new knowledge afterwords. At it's heart, the bones of privilege theory seems to be merely wanting to highlight precisely what I said above: that there is no universal experience, that human relations are nuanced, that relations with the state are nuanced, and that power can be claimed by all sorts of people, even when they believe themselves to be being rather progressive.

I believe that privilege theory can be used in a useful way, as part of, or a jumping off point for, trying to examine the many different ways people are constituted by, and help constitute, political and economic structures, BUT it can also, obviously, be used simply as another way to do identity politics. But just because it can be used in that way, doesn't mean it has to be, and forever the optimist (despite being a dyed-in-the-wool cynic and curmudgeon), I can't help want to try to salvage something from the various analyses of privilege that go on, rather than dismissing the whole lot as a bad job.

 

[Das Uberdog]

When you say "the left" I assume you mean generally rather than just anarchism.
It's an interesting perception, because if you had asked me the same question I would have said that the left had increasingly distanced themselves from identity politics in the past 4 or 5 years. I've felt there was an increasing disapproval.

i've recognised a lot of polarisation in the last few years, which i might attribute to the rise of identity politics - but certainly in my experience its influence has increased both in cultural output and also control of institutions (using NUS as an example again, many SUs are heavily impregnated with this stuff, also seeing articles in the Guardian from the likes of Laurie Penny etc introducing a lot of its tropes). i've heard similar things from folks i know in Ireland as well

 

[Das Uberdog]

...

 

[revol68]

The working class/middle class thing about who should be doing what kind of politics interests me.

It's quite often the case, that just because someone happens to be middle class and they want to be involved in some sort of politics, they are automatically bad, clearly don't have a clue what they're on about, and are part of the problem. Sure, lots of middle class people 'do politics wrong' but there are plenty of working class people who 'do politics wrong' too. You're not automatically better at sorting out what the best way to go about something is or what the most important issues are just because you're working class. Both groups (insofar as they are 'groups' at all) inhabit a specific set of circumstances that helps shape how they see the world, both are a part of the system, both have a stake in it, and just because one gets a rawer deal than the other (economically, and we can argue the toss in terms of other things re: 'identity politics' stuff) doesn't mean they have a preternatural affinity for being able to do 'authentic' politics.

There are a lot of middle class people in these occupy things, and in various lefty organisations. But rather than castigating them for being involved in some way (even if they sometimes 'do it wrong') how about trying to get more working class people involved as well.

You dont seem to get the whole point of class from a class struggle perspective, you are reducing it to just another form of identity politics, another sectional "interest".

 

[cesare]

You dont seem to get the whole point of class from a class struggle perspective, you are reducing it to just another form of identity politics, another sectional "interest".

I think the wider point (judging from where I'm picking up that this privilege theory is coming from) is that anarchism/activism has a shitload of middle class youngish people in it, that really don't even get the concept of class struggle, let alone feel it.

 

[Vintage Paw]

You dont seem to get the whole point of class from a class struggle perspective, you are reducing it to just another form of identity politics, another sectional "interest".

Not sure where you got all that from the post you quoted. Class isn't about identity politics, I've never suggested it was. I think you're seeing things you want to see. At its most basic level, all my post you quoted wanted to think about was whether some people see the working class as automatically better at actually 'doing' politics, and whether the middle class will ever be seen as anything worthwhile to other lefties, or if they are automatically full of shit just because they are middle class. In no way was my post you quoted trying to say class is something like identity politics. I'm sorry if that was difficult to understand for you.

 

[el-ahrairah]

I think the wider point (judging from where I'm picking up that this privilege theory is coming from) is that anarchism/activism has a shitload of middle class youngish people in it, that really don't even get the concept of class struggle, let alone feel it.

This.

And a fair few people who are concerned that victory in the class struggle won't change things for them because of their gender, skin colour, or other factor. Which is fair enough, but needs to be within a class struggle framework too.

 

[cesare]

This.

And a fair few people who are concerned that victory in the class struggle won't change things for them because of their gender, skin colour, or other factor. Which is fair enough, but needs to be within a class struggle framework too.

Do you mean "we'll my life will always be comparatively more shit, even if the general level of shitness improves?"

 

[Random]

Do you mean "we'll my life will always be comparatively more shit, even if the general level of shitness improves?"

Also maybe "even if this movement gets anywhere those loud bastards will still be interrupting me in meetings and expecting me to put up with their shit".

 

[Vintage Paw]

And that leads back to the origins of the thread. If the organisations that are concerned with revolution/overturning capitalism/bringing about communism or socialism or whatever display racism or sexism, then how can people who experience those things under the current system feel very inspired by that struggle? It's naive to suggest that 'come the revolution there will be no more sexism or racism....just because.'

 

[cesare]

Also maybe "even if this movement gets anywhere those loud bastards will still be interrupting me in meetings and expecting me to put up with their shit".

"Check your privilege, retard"

Edit:not you, Random

 

[cesare]

So what is it about the milieu of anarchism/activism that has acted as a platform to give this privilege theory traction?

 

[Vintage Paw]

So what is it about the milieu of anarchism/activism that has acted as a platform to give this privilege theory traction?

I'm not entirely sure it's as all-pervasive as it may have been intimated here. And I'm not sure that there's anything about anarchism in and of itself that has opened it up to it, but maybe more of a frustration that there are still struggles going on over the basic right to have sexism and racism challenged, and even recognised, even in these leftie spaces, who are supposed to know better, right?

I'm not active in any anarchist organisations though, so I can't speak to that with any personal experience.

 

[Ash Mahay]

I think the wider point (judging from where I'm picking up that this privilege theory is coming from) is that anarchism/activism has a shitload of middle class youngish people in it, that really don't even get the concept of class struggle, let alone feel it.

Isnt it the case that many of these anarchists are merely from the "other wing" & see a different solution to the "class struggle", rather than maybe "not underdstanding it"?

I may be wrong but it seems people are discussing "imports".

I cant be bothered to look up details but as anarchism fractured over a century ago the "left" (for need of a label) increased popularity in Europe, where as the "right" did generally better on the other side of the pond.

Fast forward a hundred years or more and todays youth, or those turning to anarchism, look at the two wings, percieve (rightly or wrongly) the left to be more dated & reactionary & the right to be more exciting & revolutionary, so begin to "import" their prefered brand.

Now the right wing of anarchism in America is perhaps more connected with their right wing politics via links like libertarianism, so when re-imported comes with a few right wing habits.

It all goes back to things like Proudhon v's Marx & that sort of stuff surely?

 

[Random]

I can't be bothered to read your post, but basically you're 100% wrong

 

[DotCommunist]

He'll just claim to have invented kropotkin

 

[cesare]

I'm not entirely sure it's as all-pervasive as it may have been intimated here. And I'm not sure that there's anything about anarchism in and of itself that has opened it up to it, but maybe more of a frustration that there are still struggles going on over the basic right to have sexism and racism challenged, and even recognised, even in these leftie spaces, who are supposed to know better, right?

I'm not active in any anarchist organisations though, so I can't speak to that with any personal experience.

It would be useful to know how pervasive it is. It's certainly pervasive enough for AFED to dedicate a meeting slot to it at the Bookfair, even if we don't yet know what the agenda for that slot will be.

I'm not active in any anarchist organisation either, so there's no insights from me.

 

[cesare]

Ash, what do you mean by anarchism fracturing?

Also, "right wing anarchists" aren't anarchists, although they might be activists.

 

[8115]

You dont seem to get the whole point of class from a class struggle perspective, you are reducing it to just another form of identity politics, another sectional "interest".

So, what is the difference about class, that makes it different from other inequalities?

 

[Random]

It's certainly pervasive enough for AFED to dedicate a meeting slot to it at the Bookfair, even if we don't yet know what the agenda for that slot will be.

All it means is that someone in AFED thinks this is worth discussing and probably supports elements of it. I doubt that this meeting is the result of a democratic decision by the majority of AFED members.

 

[Random]

Ash, what do you mean by anarchism fracturing?

Also, "right wing anarchists" aren't anarchists, although they might be activists.

Just ignore that post, hem's not even wrong in the right way.

 

[cesare]

All it means is that someone in AFED thinks this is worth discussing and probably supports elements of it. I doubt that this meeting is the result of a democratic decision by the majority of AFED members.

Seriously, AFED let people on an individual basis assign one of the few meeting slots at the Bookfair without it being a democratic decision?

 

[Random]

Seriously, AFED let people on an individual basis assign one of the few meeting slots at the Bookfair without it being a democratic decision?

Do you think they had a postal ballot? They probably had a meeting in London, one of the items on the agenda was AFED metings at the Bootfair, someone said s/he wanted to do this and no one objected. Apologies to anyone from AFED if I'm misrepresenting them; I have been a member but never attended a meeting.

 

[cesare]

So, what is the difference about class, that makes it different from other inequalities?

Because class inequalities in a capitalist society straddle everything; horizontally across any differences in culture and gender, and vertically in the sense that the working class is exploited for profit that goes into the pockets of the rich.


Edit: anyone that can come up with a better description that doesn't quote Marx etc, please feel free to correct.

 

[cesare]

Do you think they had a postal ballot? They probably had a meeting in London, one of the items on the agenda was AFED metings at the Bootfair, someone said s/he wanted to do this and no one objected. Apologies to anyone from AFED if I'm misrepresenting them; I have been a member but never attended a meeting.

I don't know, I was just asking cos you seemed to know about it.

 

[8ball]

So AFED are more into paper voting than jazz hands?

I've never been to a proper anarchist meeting despite my sympathy with the ideas.
I have no doubt that if I went I'd definitely be doing it wrong.

 

[Vintage Paw]

So AFED are more into paper voting than jazz hands?

I've never been to a proper anarchist meeting despite my sympathy with the ideas.
I have no doubt that if I went I'd definitely be doing it wrong.

Everyone's always doing it wrong, for somebody somewhere. That's why all of this can often feel like a massive exercise in futility.

 

[8ball]

Everyone's always doing it wrong, for somebody somewhere. That's why all of this can often feel like a massive exercise in futility.

That's not really what I meant.

Last time I attended a political meeting I went wrong by cracking open a can of lager and offering a few round. I'd probably be doing something dictatorial or pseudo-fascist without noticing.