Sheridan abandons hope for the SSP and tries to form new party

[Fullyplumped]

There's no political basis for this split, that's why the arguments for it are so all over the place.

That is a very good point. Just what are these two parties going to say to the public at the election? "Vote for us. We believe in this, this and this. Ok, so do the other lot also standing. Don't vote for them, though. They are liars/scabs/witches, and we.... aren't."

 

[DexterTCN]

Like DexterTCN's rants, it's self-contradictory, doesn't make sense, is abusive and, I expect, will eventually turn violent

All my arguments have been fair and logical. As usual with 'you lot' it's ad hominems and nonsense.

Getting humped you merely try to lower the argument to a personal level and accuse me of becoming violent? You're pathetic.

No answer to my point that every option they wanted on the table required TS's resignation?

No realistic answers to the point that Fox and Balderassan also took part in the Mullan article? TS didn't - let's all ignore that minor point because it doesn't suit you, eh?

(these are subjects you lot brought up, remember)

...he did so by trashing good socialists, and people's integrity.

pot, kettle

Like DexterTCN's rants,... will eventually turn violent

It's all you have, mate. Made up accusations of threats. You're just a joke.

 

[danny la rouge]

Whatever. I'm bored now. Let's just see what transpires, eh.

 

[DexterTCN]

Yes, you usually lose interest when the false accusations start to fly from your side.

If my name had been Fox you'd have been all over those posts.

Very socialist of you.

 

[Fullyplumped]

Yes, you usually lose interest when the false accusations start to fly from your side. If my name had been Fox you'd have been all over those posts. Very socialist of you.

Congratulations on your glorious victory over the forces of anarchy and reaction.

Which side did you say you were on?

 

[DexterTCN]

Why should I be on a side?

I'm Scottish, generally left wing on issues like welfare and education, and want the best to represent me wherever possible, and if outside my area I want good Left representation. I think I'm called a voter.

Not blinded by prejudice, you see.

 

[danny la rouge]

Yes, you usually lose interest when the false accusations start to fly from your side.

If my name had been Fox you'd have been all over those posts.

Very socialist of you.

Grow up. I'm not a supporter of Fox. And frankly the SSP can rot in hell, as can you. But just try to see the logic here. If the meeting happened before Tommy had been named in the press, which not even Tommy disputes, then his story is the one that looks flaky.

Either way one side is lying, and has shown a lack of solidarity, and I have no stake in which side that was. If I thought Tommy was in the right, I'd say so. But I think it's the other side that has the ring of truth.

 

[DexterTCN]

Grow up. I'm not a supporter of Fox. And frankly the SSP can rot in hell, as can you. But just try to see the logic here. If the meeting happened before Tommy had been named in the press, which not even Tommy disputes, then his story is the one that looks flaky.

Either way one side is lying, and has shown a lack of solidarity, and I have no stake in which side that was. If I thought Tommy was in the right, I'd say so. But I think it's the other side that has the ring of truth.

Didn't you leave?

I see it differently. I say they should have stuck by him. He won the case, I'm right. See where I'm coming from?

If they'd stuck by him they'd be looking forward to the elections.

And as has been pointed out....sticking by him wasn't even an option. These people had a duty to the party first. You're not seriously suggesting that every option should be the same?

 

[Fullyplumped]

And it continues...

Tommy Sheridan's hopes of an 'amicable divorce' from the Scottish Socialist Party were thwarted yesterday after the party's trade union organiser launched a scathing attack on his former leader.

Richie Venton, who is not a member of either the pro- or anti-Sheridan factions, said Sheridan was intent on destroying the party to protect his own career. 'Since when should one individual's control and power take precedence over the greater good of the socialist party?' he said in a statement on the party's website.

Venton, who played a pivotal role in the miners' strike and the Wapping dispute, was branded a 'scab' by Sheridan for giving evidence against him during his defamation battle against the News of the World.


... in his statement, Venton said there was no place for two socialist parties in Scotland. 'There is no political justification in Tommy or anyone else splitting away to form a new party with policies shamelessly stolen from the SSP's manifesto,' he said. The only winners of such 'wrecking tactics', he added, would be pro-market parties that 'abhor trade unionism and socialism'. He accused Sheridan of being disloyal and irresponsible to working-class people whose hopes had been raised when the Scottish left had united into one party.

He continued: 'It would be a particularly cruel deceit of those courageous trade unionists who... won affiliation of the RMT and CWU to the SSP. These workers did not affiliate to Tommy Sheridan - they affiliated to the party.'

His comments come after a founding member of the party quit, saying being a member was like being 'stuck in a sack full of angry wasps'. In his resignation letter, Kevin Williamson accused Sheridan of fighting dirty and humiliating women who gave evidence against him: 'It was a strategy based on win at all costs and to hell with the consequences.'​

It all reminds me of an old film in which the federal and confederate cadets at West Point were splitting up before the Civil War. I mean I amn't a member but it's all so stupid and pointless, and shows total disregard and contempt for the people they say they want to represent.

 

[danny la rouge]

I say they should have stuck by him.

There were good tactical reasons they should not have. First, one of Tommy's partners was the journalist writing the story. If they'd lied to back him up, they'd have looked stupid. This was a no win situation for them really.

If it had been over something that mattered, then lying to the courts might have been necessary. But it wasn't something important, and it wasn't necessary. Tommy wanted them to put his image above the good of the socialist movement. And above the privacy of people like Katrine Trolle, who was going to be called whether they liked it or not as soon as Tommy brought the case, because she was present at Cupids with the journalist. So her name, her privacy, her relationship, her job all get trashed just because Tommy won't say: "I've made a mistake, and I'm working through it with my wife". Or even "It's the News of the World; I'm treating it with the contempt it deserves". Press get bored, the socialist movement in Scotland isn't mortally wounded.

 

[DexterTCN]

Believe it or not the people making money from the story, and the empire getting it's political will from the story.......they probably had a fair idea that if there story was accepted, (remember we are talking about a potentially ((and subsequently actually,)) libelous story,) peoples' careers would be ruined. As some will turn out to be, and the SSP is probably mortally wounded without Sheridan.

The News of the Screws could lose millions and it wouldn't stop them at all.

Democratically elected people who are anti-war, anti-poll tax, anti-hospital closure and try to represent communities instead of fucking companies....they would be politically damaged. As would their policies.

You keep saying 'if it was important' (paraphrase). I mean, would you want them to lie in court if he was corrupt, or a murderer or some other 'important' thing? What do you mean by important? Are you the judge?

They didn't have anything 'important'. I'm sure they were looking, as they always look at many people.

So they tried to use whatever they could 'find'/make the fuck up. And the jury found that this one was made the fuck up. If they had found the other way...for shagging...a politician would have been destroyed by a newspaper for non-political, legal actions.

You think it's the first time the Murdoch empire has attacked the Left in Scotland, England or anyplace else? We're talking about the '45 minutes from doom' lot, here.

If it had been over something that mattered, then lying to the courts might have been necessary.

That's called hypocrisy, mate. TS's political career might not be important to you,but there are a lot of Scots with vested interests in strong Left wing politicians. I'd rather not have the screws shit on him for something that...let's be honest about...if it was a fucking footballer they'd pay him and the girls for stories and arrange some sexy underwear shoots.

And of course...the jury saw it differently from you no matter how many times you go on about him lying....since you started posting about it, in fact.

 

[danny la rouge]

I mean, would you want them to lie in court if he was corrupt, or a murderer or some other 'important' thing? What do you mean by important?

I mean if there was some campaigning reason, some political reason, to fight the courts, then there might be occassion when lying was necessary.

But let me ask you this once more. Did the SSP exec call the meeting when they saw the story about the unnamed MSP in order to falsely pin it on Tommy? Simple question.

 

[Macullam]

Kevin Williamson resigns from SSP

http://myresignationletterfromthessp.blogspot.com/

Among the waffle there is some relevant stuff. I think he hits the nail on the head when he says that the elecrtion of the six msp's represented the beginning of the decline. In my opinion the SSP moved away from being a campigning organisition and developed into a grown up political party with spokespeople on every topic and developing "proper" policies at the expense of involvement in grass roots campigns. Perhaps a lull or abscence of any major industrial struggles hastened the process. This is not to say the two approacheds are mutually exclusive.

 

[tollbar]

http://myresignationletterfromthessp.blogspot.com/

Among the waffle there is some relevant stuff. I think he hits the nail on the head when he says that the elecrtion of the six msp's represented the beginning of the decline. In my opinion the SSP moved away from being a campigning organisition and developed into a grown up political party with spokespeople on every topic and developing "proper" policies at the expense of involvement in grass roots campigns. Perhaps a lull or abscence of any major industrial struggles hastened the process. This is not to say the two approacheds are mutually exclusive.

The downturn in traditional forms of class struggle in recent years has had a major impact on all left organisations imho.

 

[Barry Kades]

Kevin Williamson resigns from the SSP

Some good points here by Kevin Williamson but as you say his resignation letter's full of it. It's one thing to moan about "vanguardism" and cliques - quite another to set up your replacement in the form of an elite group of literary figures! Pots and kettles Kev! This is not just a resignation from the SSP, it's a public declaration of personal retreat into the comfy surroundings of "people like him" - so-called creatives, writers and self-selected bohemians. But his loss to the movement is no real loss at all.

Instead our pity should not be with the rump SSP but his coterie of cultural "icons". They will afterall be spending more time with him.

 

[refugee]

I don't understand why people think that just because the jury found against the NotW, they thought TS was telling the truth. History is littered with cases of juries coming to perverse decisions, of favouring what they see as the underdog. Its one of the reasons the state has been moving steadily to curtail their powers.

Perhaps the jury thought the NotW was wrong to publish the story even if it was true.

What TS should have done was to put up his hands, say "it's a fair cop, so fucking what?" Those people who defend TS for what happened subsequently are coming very close to the line of endorsing NotW's MO, but saying they got it wrong on this occasion. Is that class politics?

 

[danny la rouge]

I don't understand why people think that just because the jury found against the NotW, they thought TS was telling the truth. History is littered with cases of juries coming to perverse decisions, of favouring what they see as the underdog. Its one of the reasons the state has been moving steadily to curtail their powers.

Perhaps they thought the NotW was wrong to publish the story even if it was true. What TS should have done was to put up his hands, say "it's a fair cop, so fucking what?" Those people who defend TS for what happened subsequently are coming very close to the line of endorsing NotW's MO, but saying they got it wrong on this occasion. Is that class politics?

Totally agree.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Socialist Resistance statement on the crisis (as promised):

http://www.socialistresistance.net/srssp.htm

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Socialist Resistance statement on the crisis (as promised):

http://www.socialistresistance.net/srssp.htm

and it is reprinted on the Fourth International website:
http://internationalviewpoint.org/spip.php?article1104

 

[exosculate]

and it is reprinted on the Fourth International website:
http://internationalviewpoint.org/spip.php?article1104

Interesting article fisher gate.

I think this gets to the heart of the matter, which is why I have never liked Sheridan since the poll tax days.

Sheridan’s unilateralism reflects one of the political factors behind this crisis – the “Great unaccountable Leader” syndrome i.e. the idea that a party is built around a central charismatic leader, who in the end regards his or her self as bigger than the party, and unaccountable to it. It is one of the dangers which small mass parties like the SSP face.

This is also spot on

What has the be re-emphasised, however, is that genuine pluralism, gender equality, democracy, accountability, including the accountability of the most prominent members is not an options extra for such parties. It has to be built into their culture and their practice if they are to have a long-term role.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Interesting article fisher gate.

I think this gets to the heart of the matter, which is why I have never liked Sheridan since the poll tax days.



This is also spot on

The extracts you quote approvingly from also contain obvious allusions to Galloway's behaviour within Respect - the disagreements over the Big Brother fiasco were only the opening shots. SR and the ISG are bracing themselves for a rapid deterioration in relations with the SWP, most probably around sharp disagreements over the organisational forms that Respect should adopt at the forthcoming conference. SR, together with non-aligned allies in the Respect Party Platform, will be promoting several resolutions aimed at changing the current structures in a more democratic and collective direction. Eg see the draft resolution on Delegate based National Council at

http://www.respectpartyforum.org/

The issue of the slate system for election of the EC is also likely to be challenged.

 

[anybodygotapen?]

Taaffe must be laughing his tits off

 

[anybodygotapen?]

Be in no mistake that the vanguardists have seized control of the party.

 

[JimPage]

That is a very good point. Just what are these two parties going to say to the public at the election? "Vote for us. We believe in this, this and this. Ok, so do the other lot also standing. Don't vote for them, though. They are liars/scabs/witches, and we.... aren't."

and that is exactly the problem. there is no political difference between the sides that cannot be worked out in the platform system. they will be standing on an identical manifesto because they ideologically are the same. who are the public meant to choose?

whatever- the net result of this will be no MSPs for anyone- and socialism in scotland represented by a couple of coucillors in glasgow.

and the resposibility for this can be directly put at the doors of the CWI and SWP- who in the context of what they have done, are class traitors

 

[mutley]

and that is exactly the problem. there is no political difference between the sides that cannot be worked out in the platform system. they will be standing on an identical manifesto because they ideologically are the same. who are the public meant to choose?

whatever- the net result of this will be no MSPs for anyone- and socialism in scotland represented by a couple of coucillors in glasgow.

and the resposibility for this can be directly put at the doors of the CWI and SWP- who in the context of what they have done, are class traitors

Bollocks. There was going to be a split, in which the best known SSP member breaks away, whatever the CWI or SWP said. That would pull enough people to have two lots standing anyway.

As far as I'm concerned, the SW platform have decided that what's left of the SSP is too moribund to actually move forwards and relate to anything wider. That's their call, I'm not up there so i can't argue the detail over it. The important thing is taking the struggle and the movement forward, not some abstract commitment to unity at any cost. That leads to the unity of the graveyard.

As far as the elections are concerned, I've got a hunch that the new formation will do a lot better.

 

[TremulousTetra]

The extracts you quote approvingly from also contain obvious allusions to Galloway's behaviour within Respect - the disagreements over the Big Brother fiasco were only the opening shots. SR and the ISG are bracing themselves for a rapid deterioration in relations with the SWP, most probably around sharp disagreements over the organisational forms that Respect should adopt at the forthcoming conference. SR, together with non-aligned allies in the Respect Party Platform, will be promoting several resolutions aimed at changing the current structures in a more democratic and collective direction. Eg see the draft resolution on Delegate based National Council at

http://www.respectpartyforum.org/

The issue of the slate system for election of the EC is also likely to be challenged.

would the delegates been mandated or free?

 

[Fullyplumped]

As far as the elections are concerned, I've got a hunch that the new formation will do a lot better.

Is that based on some evidence that 6% or more of Scottish electors in the City of Glasgow and elsewhere are going to vote for them, or did the tooth fairy tell you?

 

[junius]

A good insight into what the islamotrots of the SWP have in store for Respect Scotland... er, I mean Solidarity.

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/article.php?article_id=9564

 

[nwnm]

junior missed our comment piece though -

The personality is political
This weekend’s meeting to discuss launching a new party in Scotland provides a great chance for the socialist movement to throw down a challenge to the parties of the political establishment.

The Scottish left has been in disarray since some leading members of the Scottish Socialist Party (SSP) testified for the News of the World in a libel action brought by the party’s best known figure, Tommy Sheridan.

Now, rather than enter into a bitter internal fight that could drag on for months, Tommy Sheridan has called a conference aimed at bringing a wide range of socialist forces together.

Socialist Worker supporters in Scotland have welcomed this call as a chance to bring together those who have been on the streets opposing war with those who have been fighting privatisation, poverty and racism. Out of this can emerge a new party capable of putting up a credible electoral fight in the elections for the Scottish Parliament in May.

However some on the left, including some of Tommy Sheridan’s former comrades in the SSP, are suspicious of the conference. They say that socialists cannot base themselves on the politics of personalities and that this can only end up building up egos that come to see themselves as more important than the movement.

This is very similar to the arguments used by some people in England who refuse to back Respect because of the role George Galloway plays in it.

Many false arguments start from a small element of truth. And the sort of socialist society we want to see cannot be established by any individual, however eloquent or committed.

It depends on the mass of workers discovering that they themselves have the capacity to take control of their own destinies. We understand that individuals, however talented and courageous, cannot fight capitalism by themselves and that, if they try to, they are likely to be broken or even corrupted in the process.

Figures

Often when a new movement is developing, certain figures emerge who seem to many new activists to embody what it stands for. For instance, in the late 1960s the new mass movements of students and workers found its first figureheads in people like Danny Cohn Bendit in France, Tariq Ali in Britain and Bernadette Devlin in Ireland.

More recently, Fausto Bertinotti and Vittorio Agnoletto came to be seen as figureheads of the anti-capitalist movement in Italy when they responded to the police murder of Carlo Giuliani in Genoa by calling on thousands of workers to defy the government by demonstrating the next day.

In France, peasant leader José Bové is seen by hundreds of thousands of people as the person who best expresses their feeling against the system.

Once such personalities begin to have a prominent role there is, of course, the danger that they will later use their prestige to mislead the movement - as Fausto Bertinotti has by entering an Italian government that is sending troops to Afghanistan and Lebanon.

But socialists cannot, out of fear of what might eventually happen, simply turn our back on their capacity to stimulate the growth of a movement.

We have to throw ourselves into building that movement, knowing that as people become part of it, they can begin to discover their capacity to take control of things without relying on individuals.

In doing so, they can create an environment with its own democratic structures which are the only protection against individual personalities going in the wrong direction.

Tommy Sheridan has a public profile much greater than that of any other socialist in Scotland because of his record of agitation going back to the campaign against the poll tax and the principled stands he has taken both in and outside of the Scottish Parliament.

Socialist Worker supporters are working with many others to build this weekend’s conference, not because we have suddenly joined some Tommy Sheridan fan club, but because together we can draw in the forces for a new movement that is powerful and confident enough to value the talents of individuals without bowing down to them.

 

[refugee]

And people actually get taken in by that!!!!