Sexual street harassment in Brixton

[ShiftyBagLady]

Hence my thoughts relating to environment and cultures.

What thoughts? You haven't said anything particular or significant about environment and cultures. SPIT IT OUT

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Would definitely be interesting to get the perspective of teens. Anyone have a connection with a local school?

But you'd only get opinions from girls locally, or is that all you're after (considering thread is about Brixton).

Wouldn't it be better to go somewhere like Oxford Circus to a shop where lots of teenagers from all over London (and outside of London) visit, like Primark/Top Shop etc.

You'd also be able to get the views of foreign teenagers and their experiences where they live.

Obviously no good though if you only want to concentrate on Brixton

 

[Manter]

why it happens to some people and not others...

I think this is a dangerous path to go down.

It happens to different people in different ways at different times. There have been extended periods when I haven't been on the receiving end of any abuse of any sort: other times there has been a spate of abuse, sometimes this abuse is mixed in with a period when I also get a lot of sexual attention in non abusive ways too, sometimes I just seem to attract every wanker in London. Saying it doesn't happen to x sort of girls or y sorts of girls, or it was about what they were wearing or doing is pretty much the definition of victim blaming.

And means that if your daughter is left alone now and persuades herself that she 'isn't that kind of girl', then when/if something happens she is more likely to blame herself, or something she's done.

 

[Kizmet]

heh sorry youre hooked on this environment and culture thing, im not really thinking about the whys and the wherefores. No adult ever really spoke to me about this casual, mildly (?) sexual interaction with older, strange males and what it means and why it happens. its good that you can/do talk to your girls about it.

Thank you. I am trying to make her aware that there are factors involved that are nothing to do with the actual victim of the harassment. Some have been mentioned... factors like power and fear... some of the others are circumstances, culture and environment.

The reason for doing this is to separate the victims appearance/behaviour from the factors that can cause these incidents.

what does she mean that it happens to some people not others? boys vs girls??

I don't think she is capable of fully reading the subtle differences between sexuality and power and bullying and prejudice yet... for her its a confusing mess of many issues. She sees it happen to some of her friends and it manifests as many things... violence, teasing, fat comments, sexual comments.

So she means, I think, literally why does it happen more to some people than others. boys or girls.

 

[S A Villarino]

I kept a diary of incidents as part of tje study that I took part in. Maybe you could do something similar for your article?

That's a good idea. I'll definitely take a note of incidents from on and work back with ones over the past couple of weeks.

Now the debate has shifted onto discussing different types of harassment. What is emerging is the question of 'tone'. I would agree with those that say I find it annoying rather than threatening. A friend of mine seems to have similar experiences to me, which is to say the frequency is high but it's not threatening.

What is the difference between the callous 'gaze' of a (I assume) banker and that of a bored young teenager? A drunk 'lad' in Clapham or a group of men hanging around a bus stop?

What is an acceptable way of dealing with this problem other than reporting it to everyday sexism, where all types of harassment (the horrifically serious to the more low level sit casually side by side)?

For this article, i think we can accept the following things;

- sexual harassment is EVERYWHERE
- sexual harassment varies in tone according to area
- sexual harassment affects all women

As this article is specifically about experience in brixton;

- outlining the more specific tone i.e. catcalling, comments, shouts, mostly annoying-not-threatening
- saying it's not as bad as other areas in London because the tone is less threatening
- frequency - this is the most controversial. I know I, friends and acquaintances who have lived in brixton experience this casual street harassment more than other places they've lived. While we can mostly agree that it falls under category of 'nuisance' instead of 'threat', the frequency seems to put it in 'inevitable' rather than 'occasional' territory. Chance that I, and people with similar stories, are just unluckier than most and that vast majority of women in Brixton don't face this kind of thing.

 

[Kizmet]

You're quite right, my mistake. Perhaps you might replace the word vulnerable with uncomfortable and answer my question?

Anyone can be made to feel uncomfortable. Because of that your question doesn't make any sense.

Of course I'm not going to tell her its her fault. Don't be ridiculous.

Firstly, I did read your post and this is my interpretation of it. Do not presume that I am incapable of forming my own opinion as I always give a personal response, not tainted by the politics of the board which you seem to feel is conspiring against you.
Your post, in response to a question about the sexual harassment of women, did suggest that it was the demeanour of women uncomfortable in 'thriving street culture' which somehow marked them as a target. That wasmy interpretation of your comments and though you've had ample time to clarify what you meant but you choose not to, instead being supercilliously dismissve of the people who have responded to you and their 'claptrap'.

People will always read things wrong, some people will check with the writer whether they have read things wrong before jumping to conclusions.

As you have already shown you misread uncomfortable for vulnerable which are very different and as I have pointed out you also assumed this post was only about women... which it wasn't.

That's two misreadings. That I have now clarified.

Perhaps you have something interesting to say about Brixton, so say it. But this was a thread about sexual harassment of women and, as you freely admit, you've made no positive contribution to the discussion. If you want to discuss the masculinity and the 'thriving street culture' of Brixton then go start a thread about it and stop ruining this one.

No... this was a thread about sexual harassment specifically with regard to brixton... therefore comments about the environment and cultures of brixton are very much on topic.

 

[ViolentPanda]

In my experience Brixton has a thriving street culture (by English standards) and in common with a lot of other areas with similar street cultures around the world there is an externalisation of behaviours normally hidden.

Which places around the world would they be, and do they have the same density of multiculturality as Brixton?

I think part of the problem, putting aside incidents of genuine nastiness of which there are many, is the clash between those comfortable on the street and those not so.

With the inevitable result of making those uncomfortable people even more uncomfortable.

Depends how you define comfort with respect to acceptability. I'm perfectly comfortable "on the street", but that doesn't mean I think macho sexism and aggression are acceptable.

 

[ViolentPanda]

"externalisation of behaviours normally hidden"

And what would these behaviours be?

There is a world of difference between chatting up a woman in the street and sexist abuse.

It is an issue in other countries. Such as India. Which have a street culture.

​

​

I suspect Kizmet is on about "Caribbean" street behaviour.
Thing is, I don't remember the aggressive stuff being part of what went on here in the '70s and '80s. There were wolf-whistles, but they were usually accompanied by something like "lookin' beautiful!" rather than "I wanna fuck ya!".

 

[ViolentPanda]

Is 'the clash between those comfortable on the street and those not so' the clash between men and women?

At least partly.

 

[Kizmet]

Firstly, I did read your post and this is my interpretation of it. Do not presume that I am incapable of forming my own opinion as I always give a personal response

Really?

.. and stop ruining this one.

.... if you like I could explain it further but then will be disrupting this thread. Which I'm going to be accused of anyway even though its clear that the disruption is from the same few posters trying to control the discussion.

Its all very predictable and yes, you're right, sometimes frustrating.

If you want to be treated as an individual then behave like one.

 

[ViolentPanda]

kismet's campaign to convince us all he's not some kind of creepy sex case forges ahead, i see.

I've "liked" this post purely to fuel Kizmet's belief that he's a wielder of the shiny sword of righteousness against Urban's barbarian hordes (i.e. people who think he's a creep).

 

[Manter]

- frequency - this is the most controversial. I know I, friends and acquaintances who have lived in brixton experience this casual street harassment more than other places they've lived. While we can mostly agree that it falls under category of 'nuisance' instead of 'threat', the frequency seems to put it in 'inevitable' rather than 'occasional' territory. Chance that I, and people with similar stories, are just unluckier than most and that vast majority of women in Brixton don't face this kind of thing.

I've lived abroad a lot so skewed sample, I guess, but different manifestations of sexual harassment seem to happen in different places*. In parts of the middle east they stare, in parts they grab (in parts they propose marriage a lot but I suspect they meant nikah mut'ah not a long term meeting of minds )... In Moscow they stare or shout abuse depending on how much they have had to drink, in North Africa they hiss, in East Africa they are more likely to click their tongues, in Northern Europe wolf whistles are more common than they are in Mediterranean Europe, where finger clicks and propositions seem to be the way forward etc etc (*all my own experience and not based on any sort of scientific or cultural survey!) I've talked to you by PM about the differences I see in different parts of London, so obviously the situation in any other city is more nuanced than I've just laid out, but there seem to be some broad generalisations.

That also means that what women see and experience as abuse may not be noticed by passersby (e.g. I can can hear a hiss through even the busiest market because I'm atuned to it IYSWIM; my other half still isn't quite sure what I mean by being hissed at- 'like you're on stage and they're booing you?'); this makes it easy for people to dismiss experiences and say women are over sensitive. And to complicate figuring out frequency even more, you can have loads of things happen that irritate but no more and then one which, for no particular reason or for a particular personal reason that you couldn't explain to a third party, really gets to you, and causes you to change your behaviour, clothes, social plans, whatever. Which is why I am cautious about your statement on frequency saying you are unluckier than most- maybe you are noticing because what is happening is in a context where its obvious to you, maybe other women aren't noticing particular things because they don't know a hiss or a finger click at them followed by a group of blokes laughing is a comment on their desirability- maybe they are on the phone, maybe they have headphones in, maybe they are distracted, have decided to ignore it.... And a woman who is mostly left alone but has one triggering experience can be more badly damaged than a woman who for whatever reason gets constant bullshit to deal with

 

[ViolentPanda]

Not entirely. I think the level of self-consciousness or vulnerability you are feeling "can be "read" in your clothes, gait and manner" as Trabuquera says. I reckon a man who's looking for entertainment will throw a line out to a woman he thinks he'll get a reaction out of and sadly, some men aggressively pick on a woman who's looking vulnerable. Conversely, I see highly attractive young women walk completely unmolested. Usually if you front it out and project invulnerability and mild boredom with their antics you won't get unduly bothered.

In other words, you will still get bothered to some degree, whether you're fronting it or not.
And sure, some people do pick up on "tells" that someone is uncomfortable, and feed off of it, unfortunately. I wouldn't say they're looking for "entertainment", though. I'd say that they're looking for a victim/someone to victimise in order to stave off acknowledging their own inadequacies.

 

[Kizmet]

I suspect Kizmet is on about "Caribbean" street behaviour.
Thing is, I don't remember the aggressive stuff being part of what went on here in the '70s and '80s. There were wolf-whistles, but they were usually accompanied by something like "lookin' beautiful!" rather than "I wanna fuck ya!".

Not just the Caribbean behaviour but also many others. Its because of the multi culturalism of Brixton that no single culture dominates.

I wonder if that also means that those cultures compete and become more aggressive?

 

[ViolentPanda]

nonsense.

Makes me wonder where the dividing line between "duly" and "unduly" is.

 

[shygirl]

This might come out a bit jumbled, but I have to say that the OP worries me a bit as Brixton is very much associated with the Afro-Caribbean community by those living outside who aren't aware of its actual diversity. Somehow, by isolating Brixton from, say, the rest of the world, you run the risk of sexual harrasment becoming racialised. I am not suggesting that your agenda is racist, but there are already comments on here referring to sexual harrasment as being cultural, when we know that it transcends all racial, class, cultural, groups. I agree that it may manifest differently from one place to another, but I think that embarking on post-code analysis of this problem is potentially dangerous. Its your research and you will do what you see fit, but I would be much more comfortable with something that doesn't negatively highlight one particular area.

I work with young people and am always shocked by the level of attention girls and young women get when on the streets and public transport. My niece regularly comes up from Cardiff, and has had some scary experiences on the tubes, so much so that she now only uses the buses. These incidents took place in central London. She gets a lot of attention in Brixton, but has never, so far, felt threatened by any of it. Her way of coping is to never make eye contact with guys who are doing this, and pretend she can't hear cos of her headphones. Its awful that girls and women have to use any strategies to deal with harrassment, but until such time as men are willing to stop oppressing women, its necessary.

 

[Kizmet]

I think this is a dangerous path to go down.

It happens to different people in different ways at different times. There have been extended periods when I haven't been on the receiving end of any abuse of any sort: other times there has been a spate of abuse, sometimes this abuse is mixed in with a period when I also get a lot of sexual attention in non abusive ways too, sometimes I just seem to attract every wanker in London. Saying it doesn't happen to x sort of girls or y sorts of girls, or it was about what they were wearing or doing is pretty much the definition of victim blaming.

And means that if your daughter is left alone now and persuades herself that she 'isn't that kind of girl', then when/if something happens she is more likely to blame herself, or something she's done.

Agreed. It depends in how you approach it.

By making her understand that there are many factors involved in these incidents and none of them are actually about the victim this way hopefully she cam understand not to blame herself.

 

[ShiftyBagLady]

If you want to be treated as an individual then behave like one.

Oh, you are a dickhead. I hadn't realised that until now.

 

[toggle]

Been out in Brixton a fair bit over the years. Never really had a problem.*shrug*

TBH I use thing like that and builder's wolf whistles to test out new going out clothes.

so you get the behavior that a lot of women are defining as problematic and harassment. you just don't see that as a problem?


that's not snarky btw, I get some of the behavior sparkybird talks about at my work. and I respond to it in much the same way she does and that stops it being problematic to me.

in general:

the issue that remains is that not defining this behavior as problematic does not make it go away and it can assume that anyone who doesn't see this as problematic is normal and anyone who finds it problematic is being oversensitive.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Not just the Caribbean behaviour but also many others. Its because of the multi culturalism of Brixton that no single culture dominates.

I wonder if that also means that those cultures compete and become more aggressive?

It's not the usual outcome (more usually moderate synergy between the acceptable/accessible parts of different cultures, with the more esoteric bits "kept at home"), but then Brixton is, at least in the UK, unique as to its' mix.

 

[ViolentPanda]

not just on the streets mind. try drinking in one of the brixton pubs in a low cut top on a saturday night.

You do look incredibly fetching in a low cut top, though.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I am thinking this as I type so it may come out utterly scrambled, so bear with me.... On the power/vulnerability thing, is it about essentially powerless men (because they are inadequate, not sexually desirable generally, do not perceive themselves to be sexually desirable to that woman, because she is very clearly marked as 'belonging' to another man eg pregnant) trying to assert some sort of power and control over women? A kind of dog pissing against a lamppost thing almost. Which may explain the lads in front of friends, picking on women who may not be the 'most attractive' or 'provocatively' dressed- it's not a out a hot girl showing leg, it's about something that is off limits to them and they push back against that powerlessness with crudity and sexual language as it is all they have to assert power? That the 'thing' is a living breathing human female is almost irrelevant (bear with me....) it's almost like keying a car you can't afford.

Linked to young kids saying stuff, they are aware of their sexuality on some level and their masculinity on some level but know they are essentially sexually powerless/useless/wouldn't know what to do with themselves if sex was offered, but it's them starting to assert themselves in an area where they are essentially inadequate and unsure and the only way they know how to do it is abusively.

As I said, sort of thinking aloud, and feel free to flame me. A little bit. But please be gentle

Let's just say that a lot of psychologists theorise something along the same lines, and that "acting out" can be a big part of asserting power and identity for economically and/or socially marginalised people.

 

[Kizmet]

Oh, you are a dickhead. I hadn't realised that until now.

You misread me twice and assumed things I didn't say then when that's pointed out you call me a dickhead?

Classy.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Its a bold statement to say one is comfortable on the streets.

In the old days it would be called streetwise... but nowadays people don't seem to use the term. It comes from spending a long time in that environment. A really long time.

Perhaps you were born in a similar kind of street culture and have long experience... maybe, I don't know. Were you? What qualifies you to say you are 'comfortable on the streets'?

I wouldn't go as far as to say I am comfortable on the streets and I am a six foot tall guy.

So perhaps don't be so hasty in getting righteous.

Strange. "Streetwise" was always a Ronseal word for my generation. It meant you wre wise to the ways of the street. It didn't have anything to do with being "comfortable on the streets".

 

[Kizmet]

I've "liked" this post purely to fuel Kizmet's belief that he's a wielder of the shiny sword of righteousness against Urban's barbarian hordes (i.e. people who think he's a creep).

It's my belief and I'm sticking to it.

And with all the same old names doing the liking and the misreading... well you're giving me all the evidence I need.

 

[Kizmet]

It's not the usual outcome (more usually moderate synergy between the acceptable/accessible parts of different cultures, with the more esoteric bits "kept at home"), but then Brixton is, at least in the UK, unique as to its' mix.

Fairly unique... there are areas in London central that are similar and say Brent or parts of newham.

No two areas are exactly alike... but there is a commonality.

 

[kittyP]

It's my belief and I'm sticking to it.

And with all the same old names doing the liking and the misreading... well you're giving me all the evidence I need.

And therein lies the rub.

 

[Kizmet]

Strange. "Streetwise" was always a Ronseal word for my generation. It meant you wre wise to the ways of the street. It didn't have anything to do with being "comfortable on the streets".

I think they are very obviously linked.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I see you are popular.

I think you miss my point. I was arguing that there is a clash within cultures. Not a clash of cultures. Going down the road of clash of cultures leads to Huntington view.

Societies do not have fixed cultures. Over last hundred years our society has changed dramatically. Women now have the vote and gays can have civil partnerships. Social attitudes have changed.

However I would not say that this is inevitable. Take Iran. Secular progressive government in 50s now replaced by Theocracy that has set back womens rights.

However you are correct to say streets can be a minefield. Urbanization/Capitalism ( they are linked in most societies) does throw together people in a way that forces change and conflict. Not necessarily a bad thing.

Also, it's worth adding that attempts to crystalise or codify a culture almost always end in the worst sort of nationalistic bollocks because it is the nature of culture to be fluid, to hybridise and evolve according to influences.

 

[kittyP]

Something I have been aware of over the years, is that it is rarely young men (teens - early twenties) that this behaviour comes from.
It is much more common for it to come from blokes that (at least appear) are in their thirties and forties.
I'm not sure what point I'm really making here but I guess I find it depressing coming from people one would hope had learned better by now.
It's not in any way ok from young men but I personally find it easier to shrug off from an eighteen year old than a thirty year old.