Sexual street harassment in Brixton

[ViolentPanda]

I think they are very obviously linked.

I think the latter can result from the former, but that it's in no way a given.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Something I have been aware of over the years, is that it is rarely young men (teens - early twenties) that this behaviour comes from.
It is much more common for it to come from blokes that (at least appear) are in their thirties and forties.
I'm not sure what point I'm really making here but I guess I find it depressing coming from people one would hope had learned better by now.
It's not in any way ok from young men but I personally find it easier to shrug off from an eighteen year old than a thirty year old.

I put some of that down to bravado and showing off to their mates that they've still got it

They're the same type that are probably telling their mates that they get it every night

 

[Manter]

Something I have been aware of over the years, is that it is rarely young men (teens - early twenties) that this behaviour comes from.
It is much more common for it to come from blokes that (at least appear) are in their thirties and forties.
I'm not sure what point I'm really making here but I guess I find it depressing coming from people one would hope had learned better by now.
It's not in any way ok from young men but I personally find it easier to shrug off from an eighteen year old than a thirty year old.

But it seems others eg Ms T gets more from kids/younger men?

 

[Ms T]

But it seems others eg Ms T gets more from kids/younger men?

The other day I got "appreciative noises" from a bunch of kids, a guy in his twenties, and a man who was probably in his fifties/sixties. On the same day. Within two minutes walk of my house.

 

[ViolentPanda]

There you go again... turning it into "you know my experiences" claptrap.

I don't have to know your experiences to know when you're talking inconsistent bollocks.



That's not what you said before.



I have examined why. There is no coincidence that almost all the people who "misinterpreted me" are the same few posters over and over again. A smallish group of long term posters and some desperate to impress newbies who are also not coincidently some of the same posters involved in the "pm conversation" row.

I have examined it a lot and the conclusions aren't pretty for a lot of these people... if you like I could explain it further but then will be disrupting this thread. Which I'm going to be accused of anyway even though its clear that the disruption is from the same few posters trying to control the discussion.

Its all very predictable and yes, you're right, sometimes frustrating.

As always for you, it's always the fault of everyone else/a clique of people out to traduce you, never you.

 

[Manter]

The other day I got "appreciative noises" from a bunch of kids, a guy in his twenties, and a man who was probably in his fifties/sixties. On the same day. Within two minutes walk of my house.

Ugh.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I don't mind if you think its creepy. You can think anything that you like.

I only mind when you prevent a discussion from entering difficult subjects just because you get a righteous hard-on everytime I post.

I think you'll find tht what he gets is nausea, not a boner.

 

[Rushy]

derail warning


I had this recently with a female best friend I've had for 24 years!!! I used to live at her parents when I got kicked out of home at 16/17

She has shook off/rotated through all her friends and aquaintances over the last 24 years, I have been the only constant in her life really, through all her boyfriends, good times and bad. I had keys to her house the lot.

Enter stage left, short, neurotic fuck bag of a boyfriend, she seems to spend most her time holding/propping him up, practically with his work and psychologically. He always seemed a bit spiky but when she let me stay at her house as I was on a course in london he lost it and started issuing ultimatums

defriended off face book because communicating with her sends him off, not seen her for three months, no comms

I can appreciate he is a cunt bag, I can't believe she hasn't managed his shit in regard to me better, very disappointing

CARRY ON

I had a friend like that. We travelled together. Got on super well. And then her new boyfriend disapproved and she said she couldn't stay in touch because he got too moody whenever I or any other male friend was mentioned. Why would you stay with someone like that?

 

[ViolentPanda]

- sexual harassment varies in tone according to area

I think that's a debatable contention. I'm sure you could say that overt sexual harrassment varies in tone according to area, but we can't really make an overall judgement because we don't know what goes on out-of-sight, and any conclusions we draw from overt harrassment are at best provisional.

 

[Manter]

I think that's a debatable contention. I'm sure you could say that overt sexual harrassment varies in tone according to area, but we can't really make an overall judgement because we don't know what goes on out-of-sight, and any conclusions we draw from overt harrassment are at best provisional.

Yeah- but I actually agree with her based on my experience (anecdotal evidence ftw!)- I've experienced alcohol fuelled lunges in Clapham, Islington etc. which have sometimes been quite, er, assertive but are usually easy to get away from: in the City near work it seems to be a combination of alcohol and entitlement and has ranged from serious assault to baying packs of junior brokers who think monogrammed shirts are some sort of badge of desirability- and are quite pissed off if you aren't impressed: Brixton, in my experience, you get more low level and irritating 'compliments' that turn nasty if you ignore them. Or sometimes start out nasty, but it's different, somehow.

 

[Greebo]

I had a friend like that. We travelled together. Got on super well. And then her new boyfriend disapproved and she said she couldn't stay in touch because he got too moody whenever I or any other male friend was mentioned. Why would you stay with someone like that?

Speaking from personal experience, because you think that if you give in on this, he'll calm down (he didn't, instead he became increasingly jealous, quickly reaching an unreasonable degree), because you love him, because you think he loves you, because the sex is amazingly good...

 

[Manter]

Speaking from personal experience, because you think that if you give in on this, he'll calm down (he didn't, instead he became increasingly jealous, quickly reaching an unreasonable degree), because you love him, because you think he loves you, because the sex is amazingly good...

And sometimes because you don't have the self esteem/confidence to negotiate the boundaries of your relationships

 

[kittyP]

But it seems others eg Ms T gets more from kids/younger men?

Yes. It probably is because I brush it off more easily from younger men.

 

[Ms T]

Ugh.

It was very low-level "hello sexy" type stuff so not particulary annoying. Funnily enough, the men I was most dreading passing - a group of Scottish football fans dressed in kilts and getting tanked up at 11am in King's Cross - were absolutely fine.

 

[Winot]

Mrs Winot moved to Brixton in 1994. Her experience was that she received a lot of friendly attention from men of Caribbean heritage. Freaked her out a bit at first but most of the time it didn't turn nasty. It has reduced over time; who knows whether that is down to age/having kids/become more used to Brixton.

 

[Greebo]

And sometimes because you don't have the self esteem/confidence to negotiate the boundaries of your relationships

Or because you don't have the experience to know that giving in this time will only lead to him demanding more.

 

[Manter]

Or because you don't have the experience to know that giving in this time will only lead to him demanding more.

Yes, that too

 

[S A Villarino]

This might come out a bit jumbled, but I have to say that the OP worries me a bit as Brixton is very much associated with the Afro-Caribbean community by those living outside who aren't aware of its actual diversity. Somehow, by isolating Brixton from, say, the rest of the world, you run the risk of sexual harrasment becoming racialised. I am not suggesting that your agenda is racist, but there are already comments on here referring to sexual harrasment as being cultural, when we know that it transcends all racial, class, cultural, groups. I agree that it may manifest differently from one place to another, but I think that embarking on post-code analysis of this problem is potentially dangerous. Its your research and you will do what you see fit, but I would be much more comfortable with something that doesn't negatively highlight one particular area.

I work with young people and am always shocked by the level of attention girls and young women get when on the streets and public transport. My niece regularly comes up from Cardiff, and has had some scary experiences on the tubes, so much so that she now only uses the buses. These incidents took place in central London. She gets a lot of attention in Brixton, but has never, so far, felt threatened by any of it. Her way of coping is to never make eye contact with guys who are doing this, and pretend she can't hear cos of her headphones. Its awful that girls and women have to use any strategies to deal with harrassment, but until such time as men are willing to stop oppressing women, its necessary.

You stated that very articulately. I completely understand your worry and it's one my major concerns. In no way do I want to suggest that it's down to a particular 'community' (whatever that means) or class, as this happens across all stratas.

I need to find the right balance between highlighting my specific experience of harassment in Brixton with raising awareness of the problem of harassment as a whole. These shouldn't be contradictory aims.

I don't agree with the view that just because you've not been assaulted in Brixton that frequent street harassment isn't important and that regularly harassed Brixtonites should count themselves lucky. The negative effects of low level, frequent street harassment are accumulative, regardless of whether you feel threatened by it or not. I find that it is this accumulated stress that is different to other places I've lived. No doubt people have the same experience of accumulated stress in other areas of London and the UK too.

Your niece should be able to use the tube without fear of abuse *and* she should also be able to visit Brixton without being scared of making eye contact. We should stick up for her in both contexts.

Inevitably some people will bring up culture but hopefully they'll be shot down just as they have been in this thread.

I am very concerned about how to frame the piece. How do you combine the specific trigger of your experience (wanting to state that being ) with the wider context of sexual harassment that affects all classes, races etc?

Completely open to suggestions on how to do that...

 

[Vintage Paw]

I'd just like to poke my head in to say that understanding cultural differences is incredibly important with things like this, but then developing a blind spot to certain behaviours under the apology of cultural difference is something else entirely. There are lots of behaviours and practices around the world that have grown out of the traditions and history of different cultures, and some of them we understand to be 'problematic' regardless.

Perhaps there is a difference between someone saying in a flirty/friendly manner "hey gorgeous" and someone shouting "you need a taste of my dick, bitch" - but it needs to be understood that when women are at the sharp end of all types of this behaviour it's increasingly difficult to be able to divorce all of it from the reality of being objectified and threatened with bodily ownership (and violence), to the point where just mere words are an exercise in someone telling you that you exist for their satisfaction. These are not experiences that occur in a vacuum. Understanding cultural differences is important so that you can get to the root of why certain behaviours happen, but the effects of those behaviours can often be the same regardless, and asking to live in a world where women aren't treated like pieces of meat to be appraised and consumed (in various ways) is a fair thing - yes, regardless of any cultural differences.

 

[Manter]

Can I like more than once? I think that's a really important point, sensitively made.

 

[shygirl]

You stated that very articulately. I completely understand your worry and it's one my major concerns. In no way do I want to suggest that it's down to a particular 'community' (whatever that means) or class, as this happens across all stratas.

I need to find the right balance between highlighting my specific experience of harassment in Brixton with raising awareness of the problem of harassment as a whole. These shouldn't be contradictory aims.

I don't agree with the view that just because you've not been assaulted in Brixton that frequent street harassment isn't important and that regularly harassed Brixtonites should count themselves lucky. The negative effects of low level, frequent street harassment are accumulative, regardless of whether you feel threatened by it or not. I find that it is this accumulated stress that is different to other places I've lived. No doubt people have the same experience of accumulated stress in other areas of London and the UK too.

Your niece should be able to use the tube without fear of abuse *and* she should also be able to visit Brixton without being scared of making eye contact. We should stick up for her in both contexts.

Inevitably some people will bring up culture but hopefully they'll be shot down just as they have been in this thread.

I am very concerned about how to frame the piece. How do you combine the specific trigger of your experience (wanting to state that being ) with the wider context of sexual harassment that affects all classes, races etc?

Completely open to suggestions on how to do that...

 

[kittyP]

I just think it is un.... scientific/fair/ethical (?) to research the effects and frequency of this kind of behaviour in Brixton alone, with out doing the same for other areas.
What will it really tell you if you only look at Brixton?
I can tell you how many times and to what degree of severity I have experience unwanted comments / advances in Brixton but with out giving you the same information for other places I've lived in, does it really tell you anything about whether Brixton is any worse or better for this stuff?

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

I just think it is un.... scientific/fair/ethical (?) to research the effects and frequency of this kind of behaviour in Brixton alone, with out doing the same for other areas.
What will it really tell you if you only look at Brixton?
I can tell you how many times and to what degree of severity I have experience unwanted comments / advances in Brixton but with out giving you the same information for other places I've lived in, does it really tell you anything about whether Brixton is any worse or better for this stuff?

I've told OP of the hassle I used to get living in Earl's Court, but she's not replied

 

[Rushy]

Speaking from personal experience, because you think that if you give in on this, he'll calm down (he didn't, instead he became increasingly jealous, quickly reaching an unreasonable degree), because you love him, because you think he loves you, because the sex is amazingly good...

She particularly liked his French accent.

 

[Thora]

I just think it is un.... scientific/fair/ethical (?) to research the effects and frequency of this kind of behaviour in Brixton alone, with out doing the same for other areas.
What will it really tell you if you only look at Brixton?
I can tell you how many times and to what degree of severity I have experience unwanted comments / advances in Brixton but with out giving you the same information for other places I've lived in, does it really tell you anything about whether Brixton is any worse or better for this stuff?

Doesn't it depend on what you're talking about though? If you are writing a piece on harassment in Brixton (or London or the UK or Europe) does it matter if it is better or worse somewhere else - it's still significant for the people experiencing it even if you can say "well India is worse".
If the piece is about whether Brixton has a particular or unique problem with harassment then some kind of comparison is obviosuly necessary.

 

[Thora]

I've told OP of the hassle I used to get living in Earl's Court, but she's not replied

What reply do you want? The OP hasn't suggested harassment is something that only happens in Brixton has she?

 

[kittyP]

Doesn't it depend on what you're talking about though? If you are writing a piece on harassment in Brixton (or London or the UK or Europe) does it matter if it is better or worse somewhere else - it's still significant for the people experiencing it even if you can say "well India is worse".
If the piece is about whether Brixton has a particular or unique problem with harassment then some kind of comparison is obviosuly necessary.

I agree that it is possible to just look at harassment in Brixton but if you want to know if Brixton has a particular or unique problem, surely you need comparison or the conclusion you come to could be incorrect.

 

[kittyP]

What reply do you want? The OP hasn't suggested harassment is something that only happens in Brixton has she?

I don't think anyone is saying she is.

 

[shygirl]

You stated that very articulately. I completely understand your worry and it's one my major concerns. In no way do I want to suggest that it's down to a particular 'community' (whatever that means) or class, as this happens across all stratas.

I need to find the right balance between highlighting my specific experience of harassment in Brixton with raising awareness of the problem of harassment as a whole. These shouldn't be contradictory aims.

I don't agree with the view that just because you've not been assaulted in Brixton that frequent street harassment isn't important and that regularly harassed Brixtonites should count themselves lucky. The negative effects of low level, frequent street harassment are accumulative, regardless of whether you feel threatened by it or not. I find that it is this accumulated stress that is different to other places I've lived. No doubt people have the same experience of accumulated stress in other areas of London and the UK too.

Your niece should be able to use the tube without fear of abuse *and* she should also be able to visit Brixton without being scared of making eye contact. We should stick up for her in both contexts.

Inevitably some people will bring up culture but hopefully they'll be shot down just as they have been in this thread.

I am very concerned about how to frame the piece. How do you combine the specific trigger of your experience (wanting to state that being ) with the wider context of sexual harassment that affects all classes, races etc?

Completely open to suggestions on how to do that...

I agree, it isn't acceptable that we have to endure this stuff. Ever. And a girl/woman should be able to walk alone at night without fear of sexual violence. We have to continue to challenge sexism and sexual harrassment on all levels. But, given the state we're in, its works for some to develop ways of dealing with it in order to reduce the stress it causes us. As a teenager, I would actually vary my journey if it involved passing a building site, mad, I know, but that's how much I hated walking past them. Over the years, I've used a range of strategies to deal with overt sexism/harrassment, including telling them to fuck off, ignoring comments/chat ups, humour, and, like my niece, not making eye contact.

Do you have to confine your research to Brixton in particular?

 

[Thora]

I agree that it is possible to just look at harassment in Brixton but if you want to know if Brixton has a particular or unique problem, surely you need comparison or the conclusion you come to could be incorrect.

I find it strange that the OP talks about the harassment she experiences, where she lives, that she wants to write about for a local blog, and lots of people are so keen to tell her it isn't that bad, it's worse elsewhere, other places have harassment problems too. What's the problem with writing about a local issue?