Sexual street harassment in Brixton

[Private Storm]

They're not doing it with the intention of getting laid. They're doing it as a power trip, to get a reaction.

Sorry, not true. When I do it, I am after getting laid. Law of averages says it has to work eventually.

 

[Gramsci]

I thought it was fairly clear. I was making a point about cultural differences.

You seem to be focussing on just one bit which I assume is because you want to take offense. Go ahead. Be my guest.

Cultures are not fixed. Within cultures attitudes towards sexuality are contested within a culture.

As my post with a link to women contesting "eve teasing" in India shows.

 

[Kizmet]

kismet's campaign to convince us all he's not some kind of creepy sex case forges ahead, i see.

What kind of creepy sex case?

The worst kind? :-D

 

[Vibrant-Hubb]

Yes in Brixton. Mind you I could have remembered it wrong. Come to think of it, it might have been something I saw on TV in the early days of Channel 4.

 

[Thimble Queen]

I never said it was! As far as I remember, the OP's questions were along the lines of: 1) is it particularly bad in Brixton? 2) anyone else have similar experiences. I am more answering question 2. I don't know much about point 1. because I do most of my walking about locally.

When I said street harassment doesn't just happen in brixton i was responding to your post that I have quoted below. Yeah i agree that the longer you live in an area the more you become comfortable with those particular streets but it's not just about brixton... And in relation to sexual harassment the comfortable on the street thing is a red herring... that just devalues and trivialises peoples experiences.

Also, I find the fact that the OP has been in the area for a short time and I've been here longer, relevant to the discussion of whether being 'comfortable on the street' has an impact. Personally, I've found that the longer I've lived here, the more comfortable I've felt on the streets, give or take.

 

[Kizmet]

Cultures are not fixed. Within cultures attitudes towards sexuality are contested within a culture.

As my post with a link to women contesting "eve teasing" in India shows.

Agreed. I thought your link elegantly illustrated the kind of culture I was talking about... as did rushy's post earlier.

And when several competing cultures co-exist it becomes a minefield. The streets become a minefield. What in one culture is seen as assertive in another could be aggressive or another vulnerable.

It becomes complicated to know how exactly you are appearing to others.

 

[Kizmet]

And in relation to sexual harassment the comfortable on the street thing is a red herring... that just devalues and trivialises peoples experiences.

It does not at all.

In fact it is you who is trivialising peoples experiences... because the clash of cultures can sometimes explain those experiences.

 

[Gramsci]

I assume that was to me? And yes good point. Buuuut.... Are those buff chiselled happy confident men, or are they insecure in their place in the world and doing a look at me I'm so manly thing?

Dunno.

Told you I had 't thought it through

Both.

Both masculinity and femininity are not things men and women are born with. They are learnt. Something Freud , for all his faults, saw.

So insecurity is part of masculinity and femininity. Whether you are buff or not.

 

[weepiper]

It does not at all.

In fact it is you who is trivialising peoples experiences... because the clash of cultures can sometimes explain those experiences.

Oh, Kizmet telling a woman what her experience is. What a surprise.

 

[Kizmet]

Little woman how dare you feel comfortable on the street. I am a big man yes I am and I dont feel comfortable. Emasculated much?

You can dare all you like. It doesn't affect me.

I just think you don't really know what it means.

 

[Thimble Queen]

It does not at all.

In fact it is you who is trivialising peoples experiences... because the clash of cultures can sometimes explain those experiences.

It sounds like you saying that it's ok for some men to cat call because it's their culture?

 

[Thimble Queen]

Its a bold statement to say one is comfortable on the streets.

In the old days it would be called streetwise... but nowadays people don't seem to use the term. It comes from spending a long time in that environment. A really long time.

Perhaps you were born in a similar kind of street culture and have long experience... maybe, I don't know. Were you? What qualifies you to say you are 'comfortable on the streets'?

I wouldn't go as far as to say I am comfortable on the streets and I am a six foot tall guy.

So perhaps don't be so hasty in getting righteous.

You can dare all you like. It doesn't affect me.

I just think you don't really know what it means.

Are you drunk?

 

[Manter]

Both.

Both masculinity and femininity are not things men and women are born with. They are learnt. Something Freud , for all his faults, saw.

So insecurity is part of masculinity and femininity. Whether you are buff or not.

I really need to think this through more, don't I?

I sort of know what I am getting at but can't quite figure out how to say it.... its something to do with the insecurity/inadequacy thing. The difference between 'I think you're beautiful' (or even 'I think you're beautiful and I don't suppose you'd sleep with me') and at the other end of the spectrum 'show us your tits' through to 'you know you fucking want a real man, bitch' (particularly as so often shouted from a place of 'safety'- from a car, scaffolding, group of mates) seems to me to be about power, but not men's power over women, necessarily, more the absence of men's power.

 

[Kizmet]

Oh, Kizmet telling a woman what her experience is. What a surprise.

Oh kizmet, the bad guy again.. saying something horrid to someone. and being all woman hating again!

You know, one day when you actually do get a mysoginist on here I think a number of you will literally explode!

In the meantime keep flinging bullshit accusations around at people just putting forward fairly obvious opinions and feeling all big and clever about yourselves.

 

[weepiper]

Oh kizmet, the bad guy again.. saying something horrid to someone. and being all woman hating again!

You know, one day when you actually do get a mysoginist on here I think a number of you will literally explode!

In the meantime keep flinging bullshit accusations around at people just putting forward fairly obvious opinions and feeling all big and clever about yourselves.

Or, you could just fuck off.

 

[Kizmet]

It sounds like you saying that it's ok for some men to cat call because it's their culture?

Where did I say it was ok?

 

[Kizmet]

Are you drunk?

No. But It would be nice to see a conversation wander into difficult and controversial territory once in a while without everyone having to apologize in advance or think twice before posting just to avoid having someone go all pissy at them for no reason.

 

[Gramsci]

seems to me to be about power, but not men's power over women, necessarily, more the absence of men's power.

You are correct. I have not thought it through either. I do not know if its possible to completely.

Its about fear of femininity. This gets turned into aggression. Harassment is about control. Its like racism which is fear of the other.

 

[Kizmet]

Or, you could just fuck off.

Tell you what... you stop stalking me... put me on ignore and it will be almost exactly the same as if I had fucked off.

And then I won't have to deal with your self-obsessed crap again.

Win-win.

 

[Manter]

You are correct. I have not thought it through either. I do not know if its possible to completely.

Its about fear of femininity. This gets turned into aggression. Harassment is about control. Its like racism which is fear of the other.

yes, well put.

 

[Gramsci]

Agreed. I thought your link elegantly illustrated the kind of culture I was talking about... as did rushy's post earlier.

And when several competing cultures co-exist it becomes a minefield. The streets become a minefield. What in one culture is seen as assertive in another could be aggressive or another vulnerable.

It becomes complicated to know how exactly you are appearing to others.

I see you are popular.

I think you miss my point. I was arguing that there is a clash within cultures. Not a clash of cultures. Going down the road of clash of cultures leads to Huntington view.

Societies do not have fixed cultures. Over last hundred years our society has changed dramatically. Women now have the vote and gays can have civil partnerships. Social attitudes have changed.

However I would not say that this is inevitable. Take Iran. Secular progressive government in 50s now replaced by Theocracy that has set back womens rights.

However you are correct to say streets can be a minefield. Urbanization/Capitalism ( they are linked in most societies) does throw together people in a way that forces change and conflict. Not necessarily a bad thing.

 

[killer b]

Weird creepy racist bullshit. Jesus Christ kismet.

 

[Gramsci]

Hi guys,

I'm writing an article on sexual street harassment in Brixton. While I love Brixton, one of the massive downsides is the street harassment I get on a daily basis.

1274 hits on this thread in 6 hours.

Pretty good going for new poster.

Welcome to Urban.

BTW full and frank discussions are the norm here.

 

[Kizmet]

I see you are popular.

haterz be hatin'

I think you miss my point. I was arguing that there is a clash within cultures. Not a clash of cultures. Going down the road of clash of cultures leads to Huntington view.

Societies do not have fixed cultures. Over last hundred years our society has changed dramatically. Women now have the vote and gays can have civil partnerships. Social attitudes have changed.

However I would not say that this is inevitable. Take Iran. Secular progressive government in 50s now replaced by Theocracy that has set back womens rights.

That's the thing... I didn't say clash of cultures... I mentioned communality of cultures - some things that are common to street cultures around the world.

In this way your link illustrated my point about the sometimes extremely sexist behaviours that are common.

The clash I mentioned comes between those who are accustomed to those cultures and those who are not. This point was illustrated nicely by both rushy and effrasurfer.

However you are correct to say streets can be a minefield. Urbanization/Capitalism ( they are linked in most societies) does throw together people in a way that forces change and conflict. Not necessarily a bad thing.

Brixton can be a shock to the system for someone from say.... Surrey or an Essex village.

 

[Gramsci]

That's the thing... I didn't say clash of cultures... I mentioned communality of cultures - some things that are common to street cultures around the world.

You said "competing" not "communality".

And when several competing cultures co-exist it becomes a minefield. The streets become a minefield. What in one culture is seen as assertive in another could be aggressive or another vulnerable.

 

[Kizmet]

Weird creepy racist bullshit. Jesus Christ kismet.

And to make matters worse I think I may have just shagged your mum...

:-(

 

[Kizmet]

You said "competing" not "communality".

I did in that post to you in reference to the streets of brixton...

However in the original post I was talking about commonalities of culture leading to a certain recurring behaviour. two related but slightly different points.

 

[chavezcat]

I've lived here for about 9 years, I actually think what the hell, thanks for sharing your opinion that I look okay in the middle of a weekday afternoon or whatever (?). I've never felt threatened or touched or anything. And I don't think it has ever been anything but a gentle appreciation.

that being said, I had my butt groped / quickly goosed quite hard in a crowded National Gallery exhibition. That was deeply unpleasant and spoiled the exhibition for me.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

After a skim read of the thread...

Regarding OP, my experience has not been quite so bad, but in the last 11 years I've definitely been verbally hassled on the street (sometimes with an ignoring then leading to abuse), on rarer occasions groped, and once wanked at. It seemed to happen more when I was younger, or if I'm dressed in a way that perhaps makes me look a bit younger. I always thought this was more to so with my younger self being perceived as more vulnerable and less able to stand up to shit than my 30s self, if that makes sense? Certainly I spent most of my mid-late 20s in jeans and t-shirt so I certainly wasn't glamming it up more. Mind you, I did get "appreciative" comments from men when on my way to my wedding past year.

And Kizmet, you're coming across as apologist and not a little creepy. Stop it.

 

[boohoo]

I wouldn't call that not quite harassment, I'd call it not harassment.

i didn't want someone talking to me on the way home uninvited. Having been shouted at by one guy who I wouldn't give my phone number to and had someone not let me get pass them when I wouldn't give my number to them, I didn't feel that I could ignore this guy with out fear of being intimidated or threatened by him. I was a naive teen back then with very strict parents.