Sexual street harassment in Brixton
- Thread starter S A Villarino
- Start date
Agent Sparrow
the age of slippers and migraines
Tbh I completely agree with you on the singling out thing - other people had made that point though and that was why I noted that I was not specifically referring to the generalisations in the post I took issue with. And IME it's happened to me from lots of different groups/locations/communities. My further concern about the singling out issue is that it's easy for people to fall into stereotypes.
I would disagree with no-one excusing sexist behaviour though. It may not have been explicit, but I think the tone of a few posts has felt quite implicitly excusing. IMO obviously.
5t3IIa
Registered User
A female house mate years ago used to get crap every night on her way home from work when I was living in Clapton. So one night I went and confronted her tormenters, because I'd had a beer.They actually seemed a bit shocked that they were being pulled and didn't respond aggressively, much to my good fortune.
See, this is so so so complicated. She didn't feel she could say anything (I assume), she probably mentioned it to you kinda in passing, it didn't occur to them that were upsetting her, they didn't care anyway but they respected your opinion on the matter. No wonder these threads run and run and run.
Okay, I have no idea why men do this, I've even worked with some that do it.
but I *think* they see it as a form of compliment giving rather than bullying. It's deluded male bonding - we like the ladies don't we? Let's have a bullshit feedback loop proving how manly we are to ourselves.Yes she mentioned it in passing, a few times. Then on this one particular night I was pissed and she just got back so I went out to confront them. Fucking stupid in hindsight but they were shocked (thank fuck) that someone was confronting them over it.
Thimble Queen
Called away to another place
what Manter said. There's a difference between a man coming on to you and a man groping you (touching up was the phrase used in the post you quoted) You might tell you partner about harassment for all sorts of reasons. The big one that springs to mind is support.
Agent Sparrow
the age of slippers and migraines
On the subject of men stepping in, tbh I wouldn't want my husband to step in unless it was really serious, and even then I think I'd rather him gather further help than step in himself if alone. But that's probably more to do with being worried he'd potentially get a beating for it and/or just wanting the unpleasantness to be over asap rather than wanting to stand up for myself. It's sad, but over the years I've learnt it's best to just scuttle away as quickly as possible rather than make a fuss, because it just makes things worse 
Thimble Queen
Called away to another place
On the subject of men stepping in, tbh I wouldn't want my husband to step in unless it was really serious, and even then I think I'd rather him gather further help than step in himself if alone. But that's probably more to do with being worried he'd potentially get a beating for it and/or just wanting the unpleasantness to be over asap rather than wanting to stand up for myself. It's sad, but over the years I've learnt it's best to just scuttle away as quickly as possible rather than make a fuss, because it just makes things worse
Agent Sparrow
the age of slippers and migraines
I do feel that post is a bit of a sisterhood failure there 
5t3IIa
Registered User
Okay, I have no idea why men do this, I've even worked with some that do it.
Yes she mentioned it in passing, a few times. Then on this one particular night I was pissed and she just got back so I went out to confront them. Fucking stupid in hindsight but they were shocked (thank fuck) that someone was confronting them over it.
See, and sorry to use this as a v specific example, there's also stuff about why they deferred to you. Like men talking over women and ignoring them when the bf is there etc and so on. All that stuff.
5t3IIa
Registered User
On the subject of men stepping in, tbh I wouldn't want my husband to step in unless it was really serious, and even then I think I'd rather him gather further help than step in himself if alone. But that's probably more to do with being worried he'd potentially get a beating for it and/or just wanting the unpleasantness to be over asap rather than wanting to stand up for myself. It's sad, but over the years I've learnt it's best to just scuttle away as quickly as possible rather than make a fuss, because it just makes things worse
It's not right OBVS but that's the 'best' way to 'deal' with it all. I guess. I mean, I think there's been plenty of posts saying the same kind of thing.
The ones I worked with was when I was still in construction and working at Blackfriars. We all used to pick up a sandwich and go and eat dinner down by the Thames. Lots of women would walk on the riverside and be subjected to "awwwwiiight daaawwwwlin" which obviously wasn't appreciated. I found it a bit embarrasing so would sit somewhere where it looked like I wasn't with them, which I wasn't really.
which obviously wasn't appreciated. I found it a bit embarrasing so would sit somewhere where it looked like I wasn't with them, which I wasn't really.
silverfish
Sprinkling glitter on turds
I know what response I would prefer. I don't however happen to have a telepathic awareness of what your partner might want. If you had considered the post you were replying to slightly more carefully, you would be well aware that I was not in favor of any kind of definition of what was or was not a 'proper' response by individuals facing harassment. That many of us have an internalised idea of what the proper response should be is a part of the problem.
so try asking her.
Sorry I didn't consider your post more carefully, I was reflecting on my own internalised idea of what I perceive my proper response should be and how I have run through the same process myself and felt I've let people down
Very selfish of me I know
My partner was "groped" while having a massage in a swanky hotel spa in india. She barely told me, when she did she played it down massively it only came out later how badly effected she was by it. At the time I wanted to at least confront the guy but she said it was nothing, then I suggested a formal complaint and she talked me out of it. In reality she was really upset. I felt in hindsight I let her down and I'm conflicted having gone with her down playing of it rather than just doing what I felt personally was the right thing to do.
Thimble Queen
Called away to another place
I do feel that post is a bit of a sisterhood failure there
What's the alternative? Put yourself and your fella a in danger?
Well the woman in question didn't confront them, she just endured it. Her boyfriend didn't do anything. And I didn't feel like I was protecting a woman's honour, I was looking out for a mate. I'd have done the same if a bloke mate was getting crap and I have. I can't speak for the twats doing it, obvs.
Agent Sparrow
the age of slippers and migraines
Well exactly
Still, I would like to be like the little girl in Kiss Ass and just pwn them all
Manter
Lunch Mob
It's funny isn't it... I tend to shout back or try and slap people without thinking of the consequences, (and on two occasions have had to be rescued from those consequences by a passing malesnip>> it's best to just scuttle away as quickly as possible rather than make a fuss, because it just makes things worse
) but still have those feelings of being shaken up, powerless and somehow dirty or to blame. But also really, really angry- the guy who kerb crawled me and said foul, foul things about what he wanted to do to me, I wanted to kill him. I mean really, really hurt, maim then kill him- I could almost visualise my fingernails in his eyeballs*. I was shaking afterwards I was so angry- but also completely powerless, being v v pregnant, him being in the car etc. It was a really horrible feeling. But I didn't say anything for a few hours when I got home and then told the story in a 'oh it was horrible, why do people do this sort of thing?' way, rather than say how I really felt. I don't know who I was protecting- the Northerner, me from examining my feelings? No idea. But beyond vile.(*what I actually did was laugh and tell him to run along little boy, as it was the most insulting thing I could think of to do)
5t3IIa
Registered User
The only twat in this scenario is the groper but see how the gropee and the gropee's partner are the ones wrestling with it all. Shit's fucked up, man.
Manter
Lunch Mob
yes, this
Agent Sparrow
the age of slippers and migraines
It's funny isn't it... I tend to shout back or try and slap people without thinking of the consequences, (and on two occasions have had to be rescued from those consequences by a passing male
(*what I actually did was laugh and tell him to run along little boy, as it was the most insulting thing I could think of to do)
It's the degree of, I dunno, would internalisation be the right word?, which is what in part makes these experiences so destructive.
Manter
Lunch Mob
completely agree. And even having written that I can feel some of the 'he deserves to suffer and die and why didn't I respond differently' reactions bubbling up. It was about 4 weeks ago now, I think, but it still has the power to make me angry and upset....
Well yes, but that doesn't account for timid men and assertive women. But obviously gender inequality is humming away in the background.
Manter
Lunch Mob
you can be as assertive as you like but if you are in just a towel and paper knickers expecting a massage and a bloke has a rummage, he is in a position of power over you. You are physically and psychologically vulnerable, and he has taken advantage of that
Well yes, quite. Can't argue with that.
Agent Sparrow
the age of slippers and migraines
I feel a bit wrong at "liking' this given the situation described, so I'm going to state my complete agreement in the old fashioned quoting style!
5t3IIa
Registered User
Well in the context of the example I gave, its difficult to know how they would have reacted if she had confronted them as she didn't confront them. So you saying "they listened to the man but not the woman" is confusing as we both acted in different ways. Sorry if not making sense.
toggle
wobbly
but why do you think that would have been the right thing to do?
the protective thing is the idealised male response? be a proper man and protect your woman, at the very least make that bastard know he has insulted your woman. Put him in his place? Make him pay?
I personally would feel that a bloke that insisted on a confrontation that I didn't feel was the right option was making it about him, about the insult to HIS woman, his property, rather than listening to what I wanted and supporting me, therefore making his response about what I needed. but you listened and your response to the assault on your partner was about the wishes and needs of your partner rather than playing what you believe is your assigned gender role. There isn't a way to make that kind of situation right, but making your response about you would have made it worse.
so you chose to take the role your partner wanted rather than play the gender role assigned to you by a patriarchal code? IMO, good call.
but being upset you couldn't protect someone you care about from danger dosen't make you selfish, it makes you human. I tend to ignore or try to give the non confrontational acceptable responses to a threat to me. threat to my kids or partner, and it feels a lot different. I've gone off all mama bear before now.
Manter
Lunch Mob
By 'right' silverfish may simply have meant not letting him get away with it- it may be nothing to do with ownership or a patriarchal code or whatever: but men who grope women are (IMO) often relying on the fact she won't report it. If the groper had been reported, he may well have lost his job, or at the very least have been read the riot act by the hotel management and therefore been discouraged from doing it again. By letting him get away with it he has a degree of reassurance that his reading of the situation- that he can grope women and get away with it- is the correct one and he may do more or worse.
However, I do understand that you can't make women report assault, it isn't their fault if the perp they don't report goes on to commit more offences etc- I get all that. But I can see the conflict I would feel in Silverfish's position, and I don't think it is necessarily about ownership or patriarchy
toggle
wobbly
help out? nope.that's not quite the issue.
the thing that is part of the problem is when it's not so much helping out as making it all about them, and there are some blokes that will turn a threat/insult/etc to a woman as a challenge to their masculinity and insist on an angry confrontation that she has to then calm him down out of. it turns something that should have been about him helping her to her supporting him emotionally. huge difference.
my interpretation was that silverfish was conflicted between having been taught that the man should confront and protect and his actual response which was to follow her wishes.
