Sexual street harassment in Brixton

[Vintage Paw]

This is the side of feminism that I can't get my head round. That men who help out a female pal are equally part of the problem as decided by people who werent actually there to make that judgment.

It's called nuance and context.

If we lived in an equal world, then people helping other people would just be a perfectly nice thing to do. But we don't. There can be the implication that women's problems can only be solved by men. That women can't stand up for themselves and need men to do it for them. That a man has the right to complain about the behaviour of others towards 'his woman' when the woman in question doesn't.

Understanding the instances where this happens and understanding that the dynamics can be very complicated and problematic doesn't mean that the whole of 'feminism' thinks that men can't stand up for women. Friends helping out friends is great. And there's a lot to be said about men challenging sexism in ways that women can't (wrt the idea of peer pressure and social group dynamics - men taking the lead from other men. While that's a sad indictment of the fact that a woman saying 'don't treat me like shit' isn't enough, it's an honest evaluation that some boys and men might learn certain types of behaviour from other boys and men). But you have to be aware of the patriarchal norm, a man and his woman. Really, the important thing is that we should be aiming for women to be able to challenge sexist and harassing behaviour without the need for a man to do so for them. That a woman saying "no" should be taken just as seriously as a man doing so on her behalf. It's not about men not being able to stick up for women. It's about women being allowed to stick up for themselves.

 

[Winot]

At the risk of a derail, what are people's experience of unwanted attention given to children? I don't mean sexual, I mean the sort of clucking/touching that people think is their right to lavish on kids without asking their permission?

Is this gender-linked? I have 2 girls (8 and 6) so don't know whether young boys get it too. My eldest hates it - and tbh I've only noticed how much (some of) society thinks of kids as fair game for this since I've had kids myself.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Fwiw I thought silverfish was pretty reasonably expressing the conflict between being angry on behalf of someone you love, knowing that somebody has harmed them and feeling hatred towards the aggressor, but also knowing that that immediate intemperate response isn't what is going to be appropriate.

 

[shygirl]

One reason I never tell guys about other men 'coming on' is because I'm terrified of violence up close. The number of times I've intervened in street fights is mad, how I've never been decked for it I'll never know. Broke up a gang fight on Gresham Rd a couple of months ago, just can't bear to see people hurting eachother. I think it comes from being traumatised by the sight of a group of young men attacking a kid when I was about 10, his sister was screaming hysterically for someone to help. The other reason is simply that I prefer to deal with my own stuff. I don't however, condemn any girl or woman who does ask for help from her fella.

 

[Citizen66]

help out? nope.that's not quite the issue.


the thing that is part of the problem is when it's not so much helping out as making it all about them, and there are some blokes that will turn a threat/insult/etc to a woman as a challenge to their masculinity and insist on an angry confrontation that she has to then calm him down out of. it turns something that should have been about him helping her to her supporting him emotionally. huge difference.

my interpretation was that silverfish was conflicted between having been taught that the man should confront and protect and his actual response which was to follow her wishes.

Fair dos.

 

[Citizen66]

It's called nuance and context.

If we lived in an equal world, then people helping other people would just be a perfectly nice thing to do. But we don't. There can be the implication that women's problems can only be solved by men. That women can't stand up for themselves and need men to do it for them. That a man has the right to complain about the behaviour of others towards 'his woman' when the woman in question doesn't.

Understanding the instances where this happens and understanding that the dynamics can be very complicated and problematic doesn't mean that the whole of 'feminism' thinks that men can't stand up for women. Friends helping out friends is great. And there's a lot to be said about men challenging sexism in ways that women can't (wrt the idea of peer pressure and social group dynamics - men taking the lead from other men. While that's a sad indictment of the fact that a woman saying 'don't treat me like shit' isn't enough, it's an honest evaluation that some boys and men might learn certain types of behaviour from other boys and men). But you have to be aware of the patriarchal norm, a man and his woman. Really, the important thing is that we should be aiming for women to be able to challenge sexist and harassing behaviour without the need for a man to do so for them. That a woman saying "no" should be taken just as seriously as a man doing so on her behalf. It's not about men not being able to stick up for women. It's about women being allowed to stick up for themselves.

Again, fair enough. But I have seen in the past that ANY help from a man can be regarded as some kind of affront to the cause. Like you say though, it's nuanced.

 

[shygirl]

At the risk of a derail, what are people's experience of unwanted attention given to children? I don't mean sexual, I mean the sort of clucking/touching that people think is their right to lavish on kids without asking their permission?

Is this gender-linked? I have 2 girls (8 and 6) so don't know whether young boys get it too. My eldest hates it - and tbh I've only noticed how much (some of) society thinks of kids as fair game for this since I've had kids myself.

That's an interesting one. I grew up in a working class community in Cardiff, where this kind of affection is openly expressed, perhaps less so now. Kind of, 'Aw, isn't he lovely', 'ooh, what a sweet child', etc. Touching would usually be a ruffling of hair or pinch of the cheek. For me, the touching is an intrusion as children haven't given their permission for this to happen and are more or less powerless to stop it. And usually don't like it. I guess the same, in theory, should go for chatting to or making comments about children, but I would hate to not be able to engage in a spontaneous way to children, because they are so open and engaging. I did/do really notice that the middle-classes, particularly in South East England, don't do this much, and that some seem disapproving of such behaviour. I used to like it when other people spoke to my son or paid him compliments.

 

[idumea]

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[ViolentPanda]

I don't think that anyone on here is saying that sexual street harassment is the sole preserve of black men.The apologist posters have talked about the black community as if it's one homogenous group, quite the opposite of singling out. Many posters such as AS, mation and Violent panda have taken issue with that generalisation.

What is clear to me from my experience and this discussion is that sexual street harassment is done by men from all different backgrounds and not just the black ones.

My mum reckons that as a teen in the mid '50s, walking along Fulham Palace Rd or Putney High Street during lunch hour was running a gauntlet of middle-class male chauvinists who felt entitled to proposition you, whereas catcalling and wolf-whistles from building sites wasn't something she noticed happening with much prevalence until the '70s. So the behaviours seem persistent, cross class and ethnic boundaries and be a "male thing" related closely to the institutional sexism and gender bias facilitated by patriarchy.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's the degree of, I dunno, would internalisation be the right word?, which is what in part makes these experiences so destructive.

Yes, it's internalisation.
It's sad, because it's part and parcel of the asymmetry of power between genders that fuels so many problems, social and personal. Because male power is for all intents and purposes hegemonic, in that the imbalance in power exists in spite of putative equality laws, anyone who isn't male, who has less power, is made to feel that they transgress "the norm", and that doing so, in ANY way, even being angered by the misuse of male power against you as an individual, is a personal failing on your part, rather than a failure of responsibility, courtesy and humanity on their part.

 

[ViolentPanda]

This is the side of feminism that I can't get my head round. That men who help out a female pal are equally part of the problem as decided by people who werent actually there to make that judgment.

I wouldn't say "are", but I'd definitely accept "are" being replaced by "can be", because "the problem" won't go away if it is mostly based around male "protectors" confronting male "harrassers", however honourable, kind and concerned the protector is. It really needs to be men getting the message from women.

And I speak as someone who was guilty several times of "protecting" female workmates and unknown female drinkers from harrassers when having after-work drinks in the pubs around Moorgate. I eventually learned that a woman asking a bloke what he'd do if his mum or wife was spoken to like they had been was more effective than inviting someone outside for a row.
I did reserve the right to still invite gropers out for a slap, though.

 

[leanderman]

Can't work out what's worse: this sheer tidal wave of harassment, or that my beautiful wife has been targeted only once.

 

[boohoo]

I don't think women tend to talk to their partners about the harassment. As someone mentioned before you just get so use to it, that you don't tend to pass comment on it unless it's particularly unpleasant.

 

[toggle]

Can't work out what's worse: this sheer tidal wave of harassment, or that my beautiful wife has been targeted only once.

either that or she's so used to low level crap that it's background noise to her now and not unusual enough to mention.

 

[weepiper]

Can't work out what's worse: this sheer tidal wave of harassment, or that my beautiful wife has been targeted only once.

It's not about whether the woman is attractive or not.

 

[kittyP]

It's not about whether the woman is attractive or not.

This.

 

[kittyP]

either that or she's so used to low level crap that it's background noise to her now and not unusual enough to mention.

Or like others have said, she might not want to put you in a position where you feel you have to defend her honour.
I admit that would be difficult to ask unless it's current.

 

[leanderman]

It's not about whether the woman is attractive or not.

The word beautiful was not meant to be taken literally, whether she is or not!

 

[Citizen66]

The reverse of this happens too as I've been subjected to it at work; although I didn't particularly feel threatened by it it was a bit wtf.

 

[leanderman]

Or like others have said, she might not want to put you in a position where you feel you have to defend her honour.
I admit that would be difficult to ask unless it's current.

Asked a 30-something friend today: she has had two approaches here in eight years. Once ludicrously mistaken for a prostitute by someone near St Matthew's church, the other 'complimented' by a teenager on Coldharbour Lane.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Can't work out what's worse: this sheer tidal wave of harassment, or that my beautiful wife has been targeted only once.

I bet you're quite resentful that you have a possession that's not being admired enough!

 

[idumea]

I don't think women tend to talk to their partners about the harassment. As someone mentioned before you just get so use to it, that you don't tend to pass comment on it unless it's particularly unpleasant.

When I was younger I used to not talk about harassment at all, because I was embarrassed and it made me feel bad, and because I thought it would seem like I was somehow 'bragging'

 

[Winot]

Article is up on Brixton Blog.

 

[Kizmet]

Its a good article but I would have liked to have seen the author make some suggestions on how to put an end to sexual street harassment.

Once you have recognised that this is a serious problem that is the next most important question.

 

[shygirl]

I think its a very good article. The author has incorporated a lot of what was posted on here last week, and, apart from the title (not hers, apparently), has done an excellent job of NOT localising the issue in the ways that I feared. Well done, S A Villarano.

In terms of tackling it in our area (Lambeth), I think the following would be useful:

• live discussions on pirate radio stations;
• meet with faith groups to ask that the issue be raised in religious sermons;
• asking pubs and clubs to display the Lambeth DV/sexual harrassment awareness posters (one shown on the blog);
• meet with various political parties to ask for the issues to be raised at meetings;
• raise it/give a talk at a future Lambeth Community Police Consultative Group meeting to obtain police and community views on the matter;
• More healthy relationships work in schools and youth clubs;
• Ask shops/business/coffee bars to display posters - create some of kind of incentive, we'll add your name to a list of businesses that oppose sexual harrassent.

I would be happy to help with some of the above. Anyone else up for it?

 

[Vintage Paw]

I think its a very good article. The author has incorporated a lot of what was posted on here last week, and, apart from the title (not hers, apparently), has done an excellent job of NOT localising the issue in the ways that I feared. Well done, S A Villarano.

In terms of tackling it in our area (Lambeth), I think the following would be useful:

• live discussions on pirate radio stations;
• meet with faith groups to ask that the issue be raised in religious sermons;
• asking pubs and clubs to display the Lambeth DV/sexual harrassment awareness posters (one shown on the blog);
• meet with various political parties to ask for the issues to be raised at meetings;
• raise it/give a talk at a future Lambeth Community Police Consultative Group meeting to obtain police and community views on the matter;
• More healthy relationships work in schools and youth clubs;
• Ask shops/business/coffee bars to display posters - create some of kind of incentive, we'll add your name to a list of businesses that oppose sexual harrassent.

I would be happy to help with some of the above. Anyone else up for it?

I agree, very good article. It covered a lot of what was said here very thoughtfully.

And I also agree that what is important is a way forward. Just identifying the problem is a good first step, but useless if everything ends at that point. I'm not a Brixtonite (nor a Londoner) so I'm afraid I can't help with anything you do locally, but I wish you the best of luck if you do start something as a result of this discussion and article. It would be useful to see things like this happening elsewhere as well.

 

[Gramsci]

Article is up on Brixton Blog.

Pleasant surprise that @S A Villarino has credited Urban at the top of the article.

I agree with posters above it is a good article.

 

[Frooty Tooty]

I get it everyday and, like you previously mentioned, it seems to be regardless of the time and/or what I'm wearing. I must say, I have never had anyone be aggressive towards me. The comments are often rude and I find them offensive, but it's not done with malice. I find the shop staff on Coldharbour Lane particularly bad; making comments in English, then loudly discussing you in another language with much amusement on their part.

 

[Brixton Hatter]

I find the shop staff on Coldharbour Lane particularly bad; making comments in English, then loudly discussing you in another language with much amusement on their part.

Any particular shop you want to mention?

 

[Greebo]

<snip>I find the shop staff on Coldharbour Lane particularly bad; making comments in English, then loudly discussing you in another language with much amusement on their part.

If they're talking in another language, how do you know they're discussing you instead of a mother in law, their son's latest girlfriend, or the football results etc?