Sexual street harassment in Brixton

[ViolentPanda]

If I've read information on this and other threads correctly the number of sexual assaults in Brixton has been increasing whilst the proportion of black residents has been decreasing.

If we're going to point the finger at cultural factors then it looks like the culprit is pub and club culture and the increase in late night venues which came with gentrification..

Or we could continue the cultural factor "argument" and blame not just pub and club culture, but Eastern European and Portugeuse street cultures.

But to do so would be unbelievably crass and inaccurate. What's to blame is patriarchy and the attitude toward women that it has supported for the last couple of thousand years.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Massive cultural generalisations aside for a moment, I think it's a very dodgy and apologist argument to suggest that we shouldn't challenge sexism within certain cultures

The last time I heard that argument made with any force was in the '80s w/r/t the treatment of women in the various "Asian" communities, and it was as shoddy then as it is now - oppression is oppression, regardless of any cultural factors that supposedly explain such oppression. Obviously it springs up every now and then to "explain" everything from "honour" killings to arse-pinching, but no-one should kid themselves that such explanations are anything more than an excuse for socially-unacceptable behaviour. As you say, that's apologia.

 

[Manter]

The last time I heard that argument made with any force was in the '80s w/r/t the treatment of women in the various "Asian" communities, and it was as shoddy then as it is now - oppression is oppression, regardless of any cultural factors that supposedly explain such oppression. Obviously it springs up every now and then to "explain" everything from "honour" killings to arse-pinching, but no-one should kid themselves that such explanations are anything more than an excuse for socially-unacceptable behaviour. As you say, that's apologia.

I think the only thing that is useful about the 'cultural' argument is that it gives you a roadmap to address issues: if you have a domestic violence, harassment, FGM, whatever issue in different communities, there may be different cultural/social/psychological/religious reasons behind what is presenting as a similar issue. So addressing the issue will require different approaches (Imans, community leaders, peer to peer support, legal action, etc etc)

 

[Thimble Queen]

I'm curious why you have referred specifically to Imams (not imans) rather than the more generic religious leaders?

 

[Rushy]

It's also assuming that there aren't any complaints from black women about sexist behavior from black men. The only problem with this is that there not only are complaints that can be found quite easily, but there are also details of how many women who complain are silenced. Some black women who discuss sexism within the community not only face the whole range of silencing tricks employed against white women, but they also can be accused of siding against their own people, giving ammunition to racists, and not being good girls and putting all their needs on the back burner until after the problems of racism are solved.

Anyone using the argument that street harassment is culture is simply proving that they are NOT FUCKING LISTENING to women.

There does not appear to be much disagreement about whether harassment is wrong - even within cultures. The disagreement appears to be around the peripheries of what exactly constitutes harassment.

Sirena did not say she does not mind being harassed, nor that harassment is ok even within a particular culture. She said:

I've worked in Brixton for 25 years and I have never been harassed. I have had (black) guys pay me compliments as I walked past but have never experienced leery or threatening nonsense.

Has anyone asked her what she means by being paid a compliment? Nothing which she considers leery or threatening. Many might feel that she is wrong and is in fact being harassed but attacking and vilifying her for not feeling harassed only serves to drive people out of the wider discussion (not just on U75).

 

[toggle]

There does not appear to be much disagreement about whether harassment is wrong - even within cultures. The disagreement appears to be around the peripheries of what exactly constitutes harassment.

Sirena did not say she does not mind being harassed, nor that harassment is ok even within a particular culture. She said:


Has anyone asked her what she means by being paid a compliment? Nothing which she considers leery or threatening. Many might feel that she is wrong and is in fact being harassed but attacking and vilifying her for not feeling harassed only serves to drive people out of the wider discussion (not just on U75).

I've already discussed that particular issue in an earlier post I made. there were other discussions on the issue. what she is and isn't ok with is not the discussion. it's her expectation that other women should get over themselves if they happen not to appreciate being treated as public property.

the issue is that someone commenting to women usually does not know whether she will consider that a complement or a potential threat. they need to bear that in mind before opening their mouth, and they need to close their mouth and back away if the woman isn't appreciating their unrequested commentary rather than reacting with threat and abuse, which far too many will do. or grow a greater level of awareness that a comment to the woman who is flirting is going to be welcome, and loose the entitlement to get a response, a positive response from every woman they decide owes it to them. and that's before we get onto the behavior of men who know which women find this behavior threatening and target them.

and society needs to stop telling women who find being treated as public property that they are being oversensitive, whatever skin colour or culture the harasser and victim are from. making that entitled behavior into a race issue is bullshit, it is the same behavior with the same series of complaints whatever whoever is doing it, it's just that black women tend to get additional silencing from their community, from the authorities who are less likely to believe black victims, from some mainstream feminism (i've seen many complaints of being made to feel they have to take sides with a white middle class dominated feminism against working class black men) and from society as a whole. she made some nice claims about what the black community did and didn't think, completely ignoring those black women.



if she wants consideration of her perspective, then being considerate and accepting the perspective of those who she is currently assisting to silence might be beneficial.

 

[Thimble Queen]

Rushy Sirena also said that people were being oversensitive, trivialising others experiences. She also made sweeping generalisations about 'the black community' sounding a lot like an apologist for harassment. Understandably that got a lot of ppls backs up.

 

[kittyP]

And thinking about the phrase chatting up - for me, it's so often that the motives for conversation are not friendship and dating - it's all about sex. One of my heard too often comments, is "I just want to be your friend. You have a lovely body". (This was from a man following me home! couldn't shake him off - he did it again the following week!)

It would be easier if they just came up and said I'd like to have sex with you - straight to the point!

Indeed.
I like chatting to people in the street/my neighborhood and it upsets me when I can't, because men see me as a chatty sort and turn that in to thinking they can get in my knickers, or at least throw some lewd comments my way

 

[Manter]

I'm curious why you have referred specifically to Imams (not imans) rather than the more generic religious leaders?

Because I happen to volunteer with a woman who is working on an FGM care project, which is more prevalent in Islamic communities so it was front of mind*. Not an exhaustive list.

*and I know it isn't advocated in Islam, it's a cultural issue, but within the communities we were discussing they are told it is a religious obligation, so properly educated imams (if you like) can be critical in educating and breaking down misconceptions- as opposed to the mudarrisa, for example (though some are helpful)

 

[Manter]

I'm curious why you have referred specifically to Imams (not imans) rather than the more generic religious leaders?

And we can have the transliteration argument till the cows come home- let's not go there....

 

[S A Villarino]

Has it?

Might be worth S A Villarino looking into the figures.

Figures for Lambeth here.

For Lambeth they are roughly the same as last year.

Here is Coldharbour Ward.

Coldharbour Ward covers Brixton.

So Brixton is high compared to Met average for whole of London and higher than Lambeth average.

Thanks for this. I looked at these stats before but not sure if it would reflect sexual street harassment as street harassment rarely gets reported. But it does look like certain wards in Brixton have a higher problem with sexual offences relative to the Lambeth & Met average. Might be a correlation but I don't think I can draw causal links.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think the only thing that is useful about the 'cultural' argument is that it gives you a roadmap to address issues: if you have a domestic violence, harassment, FGM, whatever issue in different communities, there may be different cultural/social/psychological/religious reasons behind what is presenting as a similar issue. So addressing the issue will require different approaches (Imans, community leaders, peer to peer support, legal action, etc etc)

Well quite, culture (in the broad sense of "the social and/or religious practices of a group) is an indicator of position that can allow "outsiders" to interpollate with some facets of a particular cultural identity, but should never be used to excuse practices that transgress law and/or offend against normative behaviour.

 

[Manter]

Well quite, culture (in the broad sense of "the social and/or religious practices of a group) is an indicator of position that can allow "outsiders" to interpollate with some facets of a particular cultural identity, but should never be used to excuse practices that transgress law and/or offend against normative behaviour.

There is then a question about normative behaviour and who defines it, but possibly a debate for another day

 

[Gramsci]

Thanks for this. I looked at these stats before but not sure if it would reflect sexual street harassment as street harassment rarely gets reported. But it does look like certain wards in Brixton have a higher problem with sexual offences relative to the Lambeth & Met average. Might be a correlation but I don't think I can draw causal links.

I agree. Glad you pointed this out. The Met website does not have any figures for harassment of any kind.

Either its not reported or its not taken as a serious issue by the Met. There is new recent offence for stalking. So looks like the Police will take interest if its repeated harassment/stalking by a man of a women.

Im assuming the Met figures are reported crimes not convictions. As that seems to be the data the Met use.

 

[Pickman's model]

I agree. Glad you pointed this out. The MET website does not have any figures for harassment of any kind.

Either its not reported or its not taken as a serious issue by the MET. There is new recent offence for stalking. So looks like the Police will take interest if its repeated harassment/stalking by a man of a women.

Im assuming the MET figures are reported crimes not convictions. As that seems to be the data the MET use.

MET or Met?

 

[Gramsci]

MET or Met?

Met. Just edited.

 

[Kizmet]

Because that's what I feel both kizmet and sirena were suggesting. Cultural expression trumps sexism, so women should shut the fuck up.

Is anyone really stupid enough to believe that a father of two daughters with a number of close female friends would ever tell any of them to "shut the fuck up" about sexual harassment?

What world do you live in? Is it entirely online with a cast of one dimensional characters with no female loved ones?

Anyway there is nothing to be gained in continuing this argument with you... I hope it can end here.


Much earlier in the thread I wrote this:

I haven't talked about sexual harassment at all... not to apologize for it or to deny it.

What I talked about was Brixton and some of the environmental factors I have noticed there in common with other areas that I have seen with high instances of harassment, street violence and crime.

Now I have 2 beautiful daughters who are still young enough to not be often confronted by overt sexual harassment... but I fear they will and it is important for me to understand as much as I can about situations and environments so I can try and help them as much as possible.

So I'd like to have discussions with thoughtful, experienced and open-minded people about all sorts of related issues.

It depends in how you approach it.

By making her understand that there are many factors involved in these incidents and none of them are actually about the victim this way hopefully she can understand not to blame herself.

With regard to street cultures please note this article which is about the massive rise in related attacks in the "street festival" environment.

Now this shows it isn't related to just one culture... Caribbean/ Jamaican/ Indian/Arabic/western...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/05/egypt-women-rape-sexual-assault-tahrir-square

but is more to do with some kind of dynamic related to large amounts of people on the streets.

I suggested earlier that it may be linked with a competitiveness between different cultures/groups within a particular area.....

Again please note that I am not talking about a clash between victim and aggressor but competition between different groups of aggressors.

My daughter asked me a difficult question which I posted earlier and I notice not one person has attempted to answer it... I don't blame you.. I don't have that choice, however.

 

[Thimble Queen]

Because I happen to volunteer with a woman who is working on an FGM care project, which is more prevalent in Islamic communities so it was front of mind*. Not an exhaustive list.

*and I know it isn't advocated in Islam, it's a cultural issue, but within the communities we were discussing they are told it is a religious obligation, so properly educated imams (if you like) can be critical in educating and breaking down misconceptions- as opposed to the mudarrisa, for example (though some are helpful)

Fair enough. Although it was a genuine question, your ref to imams and fgm seemed odd to me. I'm not firky, I'm not going to accuse you of being a wacist

 

[Rushy]

Rushy Sirena also said that people were being oversensitive, trivialising others experiences. She also made sweeping generalisations about 'the black community' sounding a lot like an apologist for harassment. Understandably that got a lot of ppls backs up.

She said that people would have to be very over sensitive to interpret the comments which she received as being harassment. Interestingly nobody asked her anything about those comments and her experiences. Is that because no unsolicited comments whatsoever could be acceptable and the details of her experiences are therefore irrelevant?

 

[Gramsci]

I've worked in Brixton for 25 years and I have never been harassed. I have had (black) guys pay me compliments as I walked past but have never experienced leery or threatening nonsense.

Hi Sirena.

Given that one aspect of this thread is what constitutes street harassment can you define what you would regard as the difference between harassment and a compliment?

I do think that you feeling that you have not been harassed in Brixton is just as valid as those women who feel they have suffered harassment. It should be taken into account in any article about Brixton

(set aside the cultural issues for the moment).

Rushy

toggle

S A Villarino

 

[kittyP]

She said that people would have to be very over sensitive to interpret the comments which she received as being harassment. Interestingly nobody asked her anything about those comments and her experiences. Is that because no unsolicited comments whatsoever could be acceptable and the details of her experiences are therefore irrelevant?

I commented that those "compliments" could be experienced differently by others but I don't think she replied

 

[Pickman's model]

Is anyone really stupid enough to believe that a father of two daughters with a number of close female friends would ever tell any of them to "shut the fuck up" about sexual harassment?

there is a great deal of anecdotal evidence on the net of fathers having told their children to keep quiet about sexual abuse. if some fathers would do this why wouldn't they do what you claim they wouldn't?

 

[Thimble Queen]

She said that people would have to be very over sensitive to interpret the comments which she received as being harassment. Interestingly nobody asked her anything about those comments and her experiences. Is that because no unsolicited comments whatsoever could be acceptable and the details of her experiences are therefore irrelevant?

This is a quote from sirena put into context with her comments about black communities. This is clealy dismissive of others experiences and is in dodgy apologist/sweeping generalisation territory.

I think they would have to be very over-defensive to interpret them that way. Brixton is known for its black communities and its street vibe. Within black communities, a lot of courtship takes the form of street banter.

 

[Thimble Queen]

I commented that those "compliments" could be experienced differently by others but I don't think she replied

Kits she replied as quoted above. Saying that you'd have to be very over sensitive. Ugh.

 

[kittyP]

Kits she replied as quoted above. Saying that you'd have to be very over sensitive. Ugh.

Thanks. I couldn't be arsed to read back again.

 

[Kizmet]

there is a great deal of anecdotal evidence on the net of fathers having told their children to keep quiet about sexual abuse. if some fathers would do this why wouldn't they do what you claim they wouldn't?

This seem to be a convoluted way of saying that there are exceptions to my generalization.

Which, of course, there are.

I think its unlikely that those kinds of people would then be discussing methods of approaching the subject with their kids... so I don't see any real relevance to the point.

 

[Pickman's model]

This seem to be a convoluted way of saying that there are exceptions to my generalization.

Which, of course, there are.

I think its unlikely that those kinds of people would then be discussing methods of approaching the subject with their kids... so I don't see any real relevance.

your generalization related to other people's intelligence ("is there anyone really stupid enough to believe...?") to which the answer is, the only stupid person here is you, as you seem to think that your position as a (claimed) father of two daughters means you should be above criticism.

 

[Biskits]

This isn't anything to do with culture or background. It's just a display of stupidity.

You'd think that these morons would learn that the use of a whistle, a shout, or "oi" isn't the most successful pick up line option out there and move on to a new technique. Poetry or flowers perhaps. They would need to learn to read first though. Too many damn idiots out there. Training dumb animals can take time.

This should be added to the "How not to be an idiot" guide book along with "don't play your awful music through phone speakers on the bus" and "don't eat yellow snow". It's all productive advice....Pull more women.....Music doesn't sound like a farting yogurt pot.....Eating piss isn't nice.

Then file all of that under the new modern bibles one testament - "Don't be a c*nt"

Peace
x

 

[Kizmet]

your generalization related to other people's intelligence ("is there anyone really stupid enough to believe...?") to which the answer is, the only stupid person here is you, as you seem to think that your position as a (claimed) father of two daughters means you should be above criticism.

Given that I asked for opinions on how to discuss the subject with my daughters, yes, I do believe you would have to be stupid to assume that I would ask them to "shut the fuck up" and accept it.

Having cleared that up would you like to tackle the question that my "alleged" ( ) eldest daughter asked?

 

[Pickman's model]

Given that I asked for opinions on how to discuss the subject with my daughters, yes, I do believe you would have to be stupid to assume that I would ask them to "shut the fuck up" and accept it.

Having cleared that up would you like to tackle the question that my "alleged" ( ) eldest daughter asked?

i don't think you'd ask them to shut the fuck up but it wouldn't be too surprising if you told them to.