Sexual street harassment in Brixton

[Boudicca]

Are the bits in blue harassment or not in your view? And how can/should women respond to them?

Sometimes it's irksome and sometimes it's fun. There has been some talk up thread about power - I would say (perhaps controversially!) that being the object of someone's lust can make me feel powerful. And I can have some fun slapping them down verbally. This is from the perspective of an older, worldly-wise woman though - I am not easily harassed! I get much more respectful comments these days, often prefaced with a 'ma'am' or 'madam'.

And maybe I'm lucky - I've been in Brixton for 20 years, had my fair share of unsolicited comments but never anything nasty and I have never felt threatened. I like it here because strangers talk to each other more, and I'm prepared to take the occasional downside of that.

 

[Sirena]

Is it a particular black community you are thinking of Sirena, or does this apply to all black men?

I am thinking of particularly the Jamaican community. In that community - taking its cue from Jamaica and its street-culture - street banter is how a lot of normal courtship happens. It's an outdoor society for all social purposes, unlike ours which is a pub society, so there is a lot of cross-street chit-chat. The model continues over here, though it may not be as acceptable to non-Jamaicans.

 

[Manter]

There is a certain stretch of road near where I go to the shops most days to get smokes and stuff, that I get at least one comment every time I walk down it.
I don't get offended or huffy and usually just smile and non my head. But I would really rather they didn't do it.
I am purposely having to not let myself take it to heart rather than it actually being OK iyswim?
They know my husband to say hello to as well but they never do it when he is there. In fact if he is there, they don't acknowledge my existence at all

Sounds very much like the parade of shops on Brixton road opposite Jamm. Exactly the same thing used to happen to me there...

 

[fortyplus]

Has been a most interesting thread.
Going back to the power-trip theme, I think this is only part of the explanation (never justification) for the unacceptable follow-ons to a compliment not "correctly" taken. Every straight male on here will remember how terrifying it was to go up and talk to a girl, particularly when all your mates were watching. Fear of public rejection is crippling. I think a lot of unacceptable harassment is caused by peer-fear, as young men assert their masculinity mainly in front of other young men and by their peers' standards. So when a flirtatious/complimentary approach doesn't get an immediate result - it's clear she's not interested - the aggressive/insulting reaction is for the benefit of his peers ('I am not such a loser...'). Before the approach, adrenaline pumps - it would be interesting to measure heart-rate, and I'd be prepared to bet that it goes up well before the exchange starts - and it, together with testosterone, triggers the twattish reaction.

So research into sexual street harassment can't give a full picture without finding out more about the perpetrators, what they think they were doing, what values drive their behaviour, what insecurities underlie it, if and why they think it's somehow cool or funny.

It's a mystery to me why we humans as adolescents (a phase which seems to last for several decades) divide into single-sex groups and exchange ignorance about the opposite sex with our peers. I was speaking to a young man the other day who said that he and his mates used to travel in groups on the late night tubes and buses in the hope of meeting and chatting up girls. No big surprise their success rate was precisely zero.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I am thinking of particularly the Jamaican community. In that community - taking its cue from Jamaica and its street-culture - street banter is how a lot of normal courtship happens. It's an outdoor society for all social purposes, unlike ours which is a pub society, so there is a lot of cross-street chit-chat. The model continues over here, though it may not be as acceptable to non-Jamaicans.

That's horrifically generalising and generalised. In both cases such cultures aren't majority culture, so taking them as a generalisable representation of Jamaican or British culture is facile and narrow, even spurious.
Also, it's only in the last half century, since post-war reconstruction, that much working class culture in the UK has moved away from "cross-street chit-chat", and then only through a) imposition of the decanting of communities and b) the later deliberate policies aimed at eroding and/or breaking the solidarities of the working classes, both physically and ideologically.
Even Jamaican "yard" culture can't be claimed as generalisable, because it pertains to people in particular settings, not people in general, and not all Jamaican immigrants were/are town or city dwellers, some were/are "country".

 

[Sirena]

That's horrifically generalising and generalised. In both cases such cultures aren't majority culture, so taking them as a generalisable representation of Jamaican or British culture is facile and narrow, even spurious.
Also, it's only in the last half century, since post-war reconstruction, that much working class culture in the UK has moved away from "cross-street chit-chat", and then only through a) imposition of the decanting of communities and b) the later deliberate policies aimed at eroding and/or breaking the solidarities of the working classes, both physically and ideologically.
Even Jamaican "yard" culture can't be claimed as generalisable, because it pertains to people in particular settings, not people in general, and not all Jamaican immigrants were/are town or city dwellers, some were/are "country".

I know it is a generalisation.

 

[kittyP]

Has been a most interesting thread.
Going back to the power-trip theme, I think this is only part of the explanation (never justification) for the unacceptable follow-ons to a compliment not "correctly" taken. Every straight male on here will remember how terrifying it was to go up and talk to a girl, particularly when all your mates were watching. Fear of public rejection is crippling. I think a lot of unacceptable harassment is caused by peer-fear, as young men assert their masculinity mainly in front of other young men and by their peers' standards. So when a flirtatious/complimentary approach doesn't get an immediate result - it's clear she's not interested - the aggressive/insulting reaction is for the benefit of his peers ('I am not such a loser...'). Before the approach, adrenaline pumps - it would be interesting to measure heart-rate, and I'd be prepared to bet that it goes up well before the exchange starts - and it, together with testosterone, triggers the twattish reaction.

So research into sexual street harassment can't give a full picture without finding out more about the perpetrators, what they think they were doing, what values drive their behaviour, what insecurities underlie it, if and why they think it's somehow cool or funny.

It's a mystery to me why we humans as adolescents (a phase which seems to last for several decades) divide into single-sex groups and exchange ignorance about the opposite sex with our peers. I was speaking to a young man the other day who said that he and his mates used to travel in groups on the late night tubes and buses in the hope of meeting and chatting up girls. No big surprise their success rate was precisely zero.

Good post although I (and a lot of my friends) never did the divide in to single sex groups as adolescents.
I was in a very tight group of 3 girls and 3 boys (none of us were in relationships with each other) from about 14 - 27

 

[ViolentPanda]

I know it is a generalisation.

So why not make it clear that that is the case?
All I ask for is clarity!

 

[Thimble Queen]

Sirena isn't the first person on this thread to use the culture argument... Kizmet was spouting shite about a clash of cultures a few pages back.

There's so much wrong with this as others like mation and violent panda have rightly pointed out

 

[Smyz]

If I've read information on this and other threads correctly the number of sexual assaults in Brixton has been increasing whilst the proportion of black residents has been decreasing.

If we're going to point the finger at cultural factors then it looks like the culprit is pub and club culture and the increase in late night venues which came with gentrification..

 

[DotCommunist]

thats a relief, for a minute there I was convinced that aggresive sexual abuse was just how brothers did there pick ups.

 

[Gramsci]

I am thinking of particularly the Jamaican community. In that community - taking its cue from Jamaica and its street-culture - street banter is how a lot of normal courtship happens. It's an outdoor society for all social purposes, unlike ours which is a pub society, so there is a lot of cross-street chit-chat. The model continues over here, though it may not be as acceptable to non-Jamaicans.

I am white. I live in street culture as I am out all day delivering. So I am on my own on the streets most of the time.

I meet all sorts. Homeless, builders, receptionists, the rich, the people who work in the coffee bar I use.

This evening a couple of builders chatted to me as I was waiting to deliver a package for example. Talked about how people could afford to buy a place in Kensington.

I am used to the streets and know most people I chat to I will never see again.

I do occasionally compliment a woman on her appearance as I am out and about. Its how you do it that counts. Its not that I am trying to get there number. Never had a bad response.

Some of the receptionists I get on with I will occasionally compliment them as well.

For me its all part of just getting on with people.

And yes I have chatted up women in public places. Made a few female friends out of it. I am basically not pushy.

As for Jamaican society. As I have said before cultures are not monolithic. Another aspect of Jamaican society is the church going side to it for example.

What you have in London is a hybrid society. I have Black British friend who is African/ South American background. People make there own culture basing it on aspects of there own heritage and the influences of being in a large city. London is fairly unique in having so many people with backgrounds from all over the world. Frictions can happen within communities between second generation and first generation as well. Life is not simple.

 

[5t3IIa]

If I've read information on this and other threads correctly the number of sexual assaults in Brixton has been increasing whilst the proportion of black residents has been decreasing.

If we're going to point the finger at cultural factors then it looks like the culprit is pub and club culture and the increase in late night venues which came with gentrification..

Alcohol, you mean? Drunks. Drunk male gentry shouting at drunk female gentry?

 

[Gramsci]

If I've read information on this and other threads correctly the number of sexual assaults in Brixton has been increasing

Has it?

Might be worth @S A Villarino looking into the figures.

Figures for Lambeth here.

For Lambeth they are roughly the same as last year.

Here is Coldharbour Ward.

Coldharbour Ward covers Brixton.

So Brixton is high compared to Met average for whole of London and higher than Lambeth average.

 

[Winot]

Brixton has been a place people come to party for a long time. I'm guessing alcohol plays a pretty big part in this sort of abuse.

On a more general note, this thread (and #everydaysexism) is vital for reminding men who respect women just what shit women have to put up with on a day to day basis. It's hard to comprehend because we very rarely see it, but comprehend it we must.

 

[Ms T]

I got hissed at today. For some reason I found that really annoying.

 

[Smyz]

Has it?

Might be worth @S A Villarino looking into the figures.

Figures for Lambeth here.

For Lambeth they are roughly the same as last year.

Here is Coldharbour Ward.

Coldharbour Ward covers Brixton.

So Brixton is high compared to Met average for whole of London and higher than Lambeth average.

It was mentioned somewhere in the articles about the Lambeth campaigns and why they happened.

 

[Manter]

I got hissed at today. For some reason I found that really annoying.

I hate the hissing thing

 

[frogwoman]

I think they would have to be very over-defensive to interpret them that way. Brixton is known for its black communities and its street vibe. Within black communities, a lot of courtship takes the form of street banter.

What the fuck is this, David Attenborough?

A lot of people commenting on the thread are black btw, I am pretty sure you are talking absolute bollocks

 

[frogwoman]

I hate the word "tranny", but for entirely the wrong reason - to me it means "cheapo 1970s Japanese radio that runs out of batteries when you're listening to the football scores".

More seriously, though, using insulting language within an in-group (of whatever sort) has a long and honourably history. When it's used by someone outside of that group to stigmatise, it's unacceptable, whether it's "fucking tranny", dirty Yid cunt" or "black bastard". It is a big deal, and anyone daft enough to imply otherwise is either too "right-on" to live, or an idiot extrapolating their own experience into a general law (which is never a sensible or rational thing to do!).

if someone calls a transgendered person a fucking tranny in the street that's fighting words I would have thought. Who on earth thinks otherwise?

 

[Effrasurfer]

I am thinking of particularly the Jamaican community. In that community - taking its cue from Jamaica and its street-culture - street banter is how a lot of normal courtship happens. It's an outdoor society for all social purposes, unlike ours which is a pub society, so there is a lot of cross-street chit-chat. The model continues over here, though it may not be as acceptable to non-Jamaicans.

That's certainly how my partner, who was brought up in Trinidad, saw it when I was reading him bits of this thread a couple of nights back. His response was to make a joke about how, back home, if two women were walking together and got cat-called, they would argue over which of them it was aimed at. (He's very annoying like that.)

I'll never forget the time 20 years ago we walked into a record shop in Pleasantville and the staff kindly put this on for my benefit. . I was mortified at the time but now I can see the funny side.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Massive cultural generalisations aside for a moment, I think it's a very dodgy and apologist argument to suggest that we shouldn't challenge sexism within certain cultures

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Because that's what I feel both kizmet and sirena were suggesting. Cultural expression trumps sexism, so women should shut the fuck up.

 

[boohoo]

Massive cultural generalisations aside for a moment, I think it's a very dodgy and apologist argument to suggest that we shouldn't challenge sexism within certain cultures

Yep - I noticed this too. Can we stop making excuses for bad behaviour!

I know that being chatted up/harassed in my mid-teens has a big impact on me. I always covered up , didn't want to look attractive or female so I then wouldn't have to deal with people aggressively asking for my phone number. It wasn't only that these men were bothering my personal space but they were also risking my freedom to come and go as I like as if my parents had got wind of me being bothered by the local blokes then they would have been even more protective than they were. I would have been kept indoors til I hit 40!

For me, the streets are not the place for chatting up people. It's the way I go from A to B. If I'm in a pub or bar or at a social event, then yes - this might be a space where I find it appropriate.

 

[boohoo]

And thinking about the phrase chatting up - for me, it's so often that the motives for conversation are not friendship and dating - it's all about sex. One of my heard too often comments, is "I just want to be your friend. You have a lovely body". (This was from a man following me home! couldn't shake him off - he did it again the following week!)

It would be easier if they just came up and said I'd like to have sex with you - straight to the point!

 

[Ms T]

Massive cultural generalisations aside for a moment, I think it's a very dodgy and apologist argument to suggest that we shouldn't challenge sexism within certain cultures

Exactly. Would people have the same argument if we were talking about homophobia?

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

Exactly. Would people have the same argument if we were talking about homophobia?

It wouldn't be the first time if they did. Try searching for Sizzla or Beenie Man on the music forum, there's some fairly lengthy discussions from a few years ago.

 

[girasol]

Yep - I noticed this too. Can we stop making excuses for bad behaviour!

I know that being chatted up/harassed in my mid-teens has a big impact on me. I always covered up , didn't want to look attractive or female so I then wouldn't have to deal with people aggressively asking for my phone number. It wasn't only that these men were bothering my personal space but they were also risking my freedom to come and go as I like as if my parents had got wind of me being bothered by the local blokes then they would have been even more protective than they were. I would have been kept indoors til I hit 40!

For me, the streets are not the place for chatting up people. It's the way I go from A to B. If I'm in a pub or bar or at a social event, then yes - this might be a space where I find it appropriate.

This has hit a chord. The 'incident' when I was an 11 year old (I mentioned earlier on the thread) had a similar impact on me, i.e. to try and be invisible. Until my mid 30s I dressed very plainly indeed, always walked very fast too, if on my own. I started to experiment more with clothes once I got past that age, safe in the knowledge that older women don't get as much shit, plus I felt more confident and able to give anyone a tongue lashing should it be required.

(there was also an incident with a member of the family when I was 18, which just goes to show that even dressing a certain way is no deterrent)

 

[fortyplus]

Massive cultural generalisations aside for a moment, I think it's a very dodgy and apologist argument to suggest that we shouldn't challenge sexism within certain cultures

Yup. Cultural relativism can be used to explain, but not to excuse unacceptable behaviour. It can help explain why certain groups behave in a certain way, but it's a big step from there to suggest that such behaviour is acceptable.
Sexism has been massively (and on the whole, successfully) challenged within mainstream/white/British culture over the last half-century. It's much less acceptable than it was in the 60s/70s.
We live in a dynamic, evolving culture in Brixton and we as Brixtonians of whatever heritage can embrace the positive (say, jerk chicken and reggae) and reject the negative (homophobia and street sexism) influences in the mix. It's important that we do, because it will help determine the direction our public interactions develop and what this ever-changing society turns into.
It comes down to learning, and being prepared to teach, what makes good manners in 21st century urban life. Sounds crusty, but manners do matter.

 

[toggle]

Massive cultural generalisations aside for a moment, I think it's a very dodgy and apologist argument to suggest that we shouldn't challenge sexism within certain cultures

It's also assuming that there aren't any complaints from black women about sexist behavior from black men. The only problem with this is that there not only are complaints that can be found quite easily, but there are also details of how many women who complain are silenced. Some black women who discuss sexism within the community not only face the whole range of silencing tricks employed against white women, but they also can be accused of siding against their own people, giving ammunition to racists, and not being good girls and putting all their needs on the back burner until after the problems of racism are solved.

Anyone using the argument that street harassment is culture is simply proving that they are NOT FUCKING LISTENING to women.