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Sexual street harassment in Brixton

steph the being identified as trans/queer thing is interesting. I know gay men who sometimes cross dress rather than trans women (as far as I know!) and one of them said to me it is fear, in his opinion. Having a sexual reaction to someone who you subsequently realise is a bloke (in this case) confuses and terrifies a certain sort of man who then has to lash out to reassert his masculinity. This guy I thinking of recently moved to Dublin and, interestingly, says he gets less abuse there. Men laugh wryly when they realise he is also a man, rather than trying to lash out at him. Interesting to me as the Irish are seen as more conservative and Catholic than the English...
 
ViolentPanda said:
A desperate lashing out by the same usual suspects day after day in some areas?
If you were talking about one-off incidents by disparate disenfranchised males I might agree with you, but it's often the same little ensemble of creeps, hanging round the same handfull of locations, that spew out this stuff. That doesn't speak to me of the desperate lashing out of someone who's socially and/or economically disempowered, it speaks to me of learned behaviour whose exertion is primarily as a stimulant and entertainment for said creeps, and (as you may or may not have noted) is generally only exerted against targets who appear unlikely to react physically to the verbals. I'm not sure that if it were "as a result of an immense lack of power", it'd be quite so selective with targets.
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Yep. Someone who is weak lashes out at those they perceive as weaker.

Little knowing they are getting ripped to shreds on a lefty message board on the internet :cool::rolleyes:
 
ViolentPanda said:
A desperate lashing out by the same usual suspects day after day in some areas?
If you were talking about one-off incidents by disparate disenfranchised males I might agree with you, but it's often the same little ensemble of creeps, hanging round the same handfull of locations, that spew out this stuff. That doesn't speak to me of the desperate lashing out of someone who's socially and/or economically disempowered, it speaks to me of learned behaviour whose exertion is primarily as a stimulant and entertainment for said creeps, and (as you may or may not have noted) is generally only exerted against targets who appear unlikely to react physically to the verbals. I'm not sure that if it were "as a result of an immense lack of power", it'd be quite so selective with targets.
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I don't disagree with any of that. I was thinking of more isolated one offs rather than than people regularly hanging out in the same spot targeting the same people every day as the isolated experiences seem to be what is being described and what motivated the OP.
 
Rushy said:
It's totally unacceptable. But is it power wielding? Frightening as a torrent of vitriol might be I'd wager it's more a desperate lashing out out as a result of an immense sense of lack of power and impotence.
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I think it can be an attempt to regain a sense of power over women that many men don't have in their lives but which they feel they should. Does that make sense?
 
Manter said:
steph the being identified as trans/queer thing is interesting. I know gay men who sometimes cross dress rather than trans women (as far as I know!) and one of them said to me it is fear, in his opinion. Having a sexual reaction to someone who you subsequently realise is a bloke (in this case) confuses and terrifies a certain sort of man who then has to lash out to reassert his masculinity. This guy I thinking of recently moved to Dublin and, interestingly, says he gets less abuse there. Men laugh wryly when they realise he is also a man, rather than trying to lash out at him. Interesting to me as the Irish are seen as more conservative and Catholic than the English...
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Have PM'd as I didnt want to distract too much from this thread :)
 
and I don't think its got much to do with an inverse sense of powerlessness either. That explanation is way too glib.
 
It doesn't seem unreasonable to propose that some people trying to aggressively dominate others for no apparent reason and with no apparent gain other than the domination itself, might be doing it to some degree to compensate for a feeling of powerlessness in other areas. (Although not the only explanation by any means - people are aggressive and sadistic for lots of reasons.)

How much of a shit we give is something else entirely of course. My shitgiving quantities tend to range from zero to none.
 
I don't think it can be avoided in all this that we still live in a society where gender is unequal. Without wanting to go down a well worn discussion on objectification, etc., women's bodies, dress, and actions are public property in a way that men's just aren't - from Daily Mail to top shelf. That this viewing of women as public property should extend onto the street and that some men should feel entitled enough to enact upon it doesn't seem to me to point to those men's 'sense of powerlessness'. On the contrary, it's being able to benefit from and wield, gender-based privilege.
 
Clair De Lune said:
To me it seems fucking obvious the difference between chatting someone up and engaging in this sort of neanderthal shouting from scaffolding/vehicles or a huddle of other cretins. To chat someone up is to engage them in conversation. To show a little politeness and respect and be aware that if the recipient is not as eager as you, you should back off.
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Agreed. Unfortunately it seems clear that there are a lot of men who fail to get this.
 
steph said:
I don't think it can be avoided in all this that we still live in a society where gender is unequal. Without wanting to go down a well worn discussion on objectification, etc., women's bodies, dress, and actions are public property in a way that men's just aren't - from Daily Mail to top shelf. That this viewing of women as public property should extend onto the street and that some men should feel entitled enough to enact upon it doesn't seem to me to point to those men's 'sense of powerlessness'. On the contrary, it's being able to benefit from and wield, gender-based privilege.
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Absofuckinglutely.

But of course, this gendered privilege isn't a simple thing.

There is a lack of power - perceived lack, that is - as women are afforded more control of their lives, are seen to be loud in terms of their own rights, and so on. So while men still retain that privilege, they perceive themselves as lacking it, and that's where the power thing comes in.
 
Vintage Paw said:
Absofuckinglutely.

But of course, this gendered privilege isn't a simple thing.

There is a lack of power - perceived lack, that is - as women are afforded more control of their lives, are seen to be loud in terms of their own rights, and so on. So while men still retain that privilege, they perceive themselves as lacking it, and that's where the power thing comes in.
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Which is pretty much what I tried to say.
 
weepiper said:
Have we had a woman who's taken issue with it being a power trip yet? Only it seems like a lot of us perceive it to be about that, and a couple of men have disputed that it is.
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It was to do with reading Vintage Paw post #332

that this harassment is a problem in the way that it is because it trends in one direction. To some extent the content (or intent) of what men say to women isn't important; women are the targets, the people to be appraised, accosted, pursued, consumed. The handful of examples where it might be a group of women eyeing up a guy shouldn't be used as evidence that 'they can give as good as they get' or that they objectify men too, or whatever. The majority of this behaviour, the trend, the problem, is men -> women. That's the context we have to view this in first and foremost, so as to keep sight of why it can be viewed as a larger social problem even if it's a benign, friendly remark.
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(my highlight)
 
Clair De Lune said:
To me it seems fucking obvious the difference between chatting someone up and engaging in this sort of neanderthal shouting from scaffolding/vehicles or a huddle of other cretins. To chat someone up is to engage them in conversation. To show a little politeness and respect and be aware that if the recipient is not as eager as you, you should back off.
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Spot on.

I can understand why women get wary of men chatting them up. Unfortunately there are to many men who are neanderthal.

Showing a women respect, backing off if they are clearly not interested etc is not that difficult.

More likely to swap numbers as well. Its worked for me.
 
emanymton said:
I think it can be an attempt to regain a sense of power over women that many men don't have in their lives but which they feel they should. Does that make sense?
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Standard social and gender dynamics under patriarchy.
That being said, that doesn't even begin to excuse such behaviour, because as Vintage Paw pointed out, we have free will (even if it is socially and economically circumscribed to the point that some people may feel that their lives are predetermined!). We can choose to not behave like pack animals.
 
steph said:
I don't think it can be avoided in all this that we still live in a society where gender is unequal. Without wanting to go down a well worn discussion on objectification, etc., women's bodies, dress, and actions are public property in a way that men's just aren't - from Daily Mail to top shelf. That this viewing of women as public property should extend onto the street and that some men should feel entitled enough to enact upon it doesn't seem to me to point to those men's 'sense of powerlessness'. On the contrary, it's being able to benefit from and wield, gender-based privilege.
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Amen.
 
Really glad to see this being mentioned. I don't get just as much harrassment as when I moved to Brixton 8 years ago but waiting for a friend in Electric Avenue for 5 minutes last week I got two 'suck my cock' requests from two different men, one helpful 'you ginger, bitch' (yes, I know. I dye it.) and a query about said ginger hair (and actually, it's natural warm auburn) matching other body hair.

I don't feel unsafe in Brixton as it's so busy and I don't find the harrassment worse than anywhere else in the UK, but I am sick to death of my character and fuckability being commented on so often. I never know what is going to happen when I leve the house and the amount of abuse I get when I wear a dress means I never wear anything other than jeans now. I've had a few pleasant chat up lines that amuse me, but the fixation some men in the area have with their cock is just trying.
 
S A Villarino said:
Hi guys,

I'm writing an article on sexual street harassment in Brixton. While I love Brixton, one of the massive downsides is the street harassment I get on a daily basis. Regardless of what I wear (office clothes, jeans, dresses [and most importantly it doesn't matter!]) I can't walk out on my own without people making comments, shouting at me from across the road, making pussy cat noises, occasionally following etc. Many men don't seem to respect me because I am a young woman who has the tenacity to walk on her own.

I want to know other people's stories. Have you experienced it? Have you seen it happen to others? How does Brixton square with other areas?

Any input appreciated.

Thanks,
S
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Would be very interested in reading this. Just the other day I was walking home up through Brixton square and up Tulse Hill Road and was approached by a man shouting things like 'sexy' and 'i'd like to see you without the dress'. A few minutes later another man approached me, at first I thought he was going to say something about the man shouting behind me but instead he stood in front of me and wouldn't let me pass. Kept saying really weird things like 'I'm gonna eat you up' & 'I'll have a taste of that flour' (whatever the hell that means). Was pretty intimidating because he was twice the height of me and not letting me past, had to actually run around him.
 
This is a timely thread.
On sunday evening I was driving back through London with a "friend" who has a habbit of getting lairy when drunk. Usually involves simply falling over and hurting himself. After the day out, I got him into the car, he dozed off and when driving back through Kensington, he woke up and started wolf whistling and shouting out of the car (my car) window at any woman he thought attractive.
I told him to stop it, which he eventually did, and whilst still pissed off with him tried to explain that I was unhappy and he should not do that either when with me or ever.
There was an embarrassed silence then we dropped it.
We called into a pizza place as he was hungry, he then proceeded to say rather too audibly about the woman at the next table " I wonder what she looks like with her clothes off."
I sat there bloody cringing and quietly told him a again to shut up.
I was wondering what I'm going to say to him when he's sobered up, it's more complicated in that he's both a neighbour and a friend, I cant really ignore him if he takes offence (as I'm sure he will).
Some men are simply that fecking ignorant that they think woman either like this sort of behaviour or it has no effect on the recipients.
I will talk to him, were supposed to be going for a drink wednesday but I suspect that it's the end of a friend, perhaps no great loss under the circumstances.
FWIW it's only when he's drunk he'd do this but "In vino veritas"
 
I've worked in Brixton for 25 years and I have never been harassed. I have had (black) guys pay me compliments as I walked past but have never experienced leery or threatening nonsense.
 
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