Sexual street harassment in Brixton

[Thora]

I have experienced some approaches in Bristol which I would put in the category of flirting/genuinely trying to get my number. Although I have found it irritating or a bit inappropriate (eg, outside my workplace or compliments on my arse) a polite "no thanks" was met with no further comments or abuse. Bristol is the kind of city where people talk to strangers in the street anyway, but in any case you can't tell how that kind of interaction will go. And still, I have experienced and witnessed more of the aggressive kind of harassment.

I found Paris the worst place for just utterly relentless, mostly low-level harassment. Every time I walked down the street alone there were comments, every time I sat next to a spare seat on the train some bloke would be there within minutes, followed home from the bus stop - just constantly on your guard. It was mostly in the suburb I was living but friends of mine also got groped and verbally abused on the metro in the city centre if they were alone at night.

Lived in Berlin for two years and never, ever, not even once got shouted at, abused, bothered on public transport - nothing like that. Chatted to in bars or clubs yes, I can remember once a bloke being a bit overly friendly and not taking hints in a club, but that was it. I don't know what was different in Berlin but it just didn't seem to be acceptable behaviour at all.

 

[Thimble Queen]

steph liking that because I recognise much of what you say.

Esp the stuff about them turning nasty if you don't bat your eyelashes or whatever at them. At times, I have responded to that quite forcefully in cases where they have been particularly explicit or intrusive.

The abuse ive had back has ranged from the generic and pathetic err your a lezzer then, blates to stuff about my skin colour. I've found the skin colour more difficult than any of the other types of verbal that I've gotten...

 

[Manter]

It's quite interesting that a thread that started off about sexual harassment has become "maybe it's banter/flirting/interactions that is taken the wrong way". It doesn't seem to me that there is actually a big grey area or fine line - most of the unwanted attention directed towards women that has been noted on this thread is aggressive, humiliating or threatening.

Completely agree. I think the 'it's complicated' brigade are often being disingenuous- no one seriously believes that statements including bitch or whore are complimentary, and no one can be confused that a 'compliment' from a man standing too close late at night at a deserted bus stop is threatening.

 

[Thora]

It's overwhelmingly felt about men exercising their power over me when this stuff happens. And the unsolicited sort of stuff being primarily talked about here is very different to the what is genuine pleasant comments you sometimes get from what I usually find are older men (and hark back to more 'old fashioned' values).

The occasion where I actually stood up and made a quick retort back to a guy's verbal and sexual abuse near my flat when I was back in Stratford, he proceeded to follow me almost up to my doorstep. Whilst he did so, he didn't say anything else, or try and physically assault me, but just did his best to intimidate. It worked.

Numerous times I've had a man say something to me on the street as I'm passing, sexually-oriented and 'complimentary' (that is, a compliment on his terms), and when I've ignored, the torrent of abuse comes straight after - 'fucking ignorant bitch'. If this isn't wielding power because you haven't reacted subserviently to them then what is it?

And when being perceived as trans/queer is also part of that equation, that sexually-oriented/gender-based dynamic soon breaks into homophobia/misogyny - whether you react or not. Regardless of the initial comment ('nice legs sexy', wolf-whistle), then follows the accusations that 'you might be a man', 'didn't fancy you anyway ugly bitch'. Very much again, the male perpetrator employing a power dynamic to express that you are lesser than him/don't conform/meet 'his standards'.

That's the thing isn't it? A man making a fairly innocuous comment (maybe a compliment or a request for a number or that you stop and speak to him) might not know if it is going to be well received or not - but then the woman on the other end of it doesn't know if her refusal is going to result in him backing down or in getting verbal abuse or even violence back.

 

[TopCat]

I think the line between flirting with a stranger and being a huge cunt is quite clearly defined in most men's eyes. Unfortunately the remainder (of men) are pretty busy blokes.

 

[Rushy]

Completely agree. I think the 'it's complicated' brigade are often being disingenuous- no one seriously believes that statements including bitch or whore are complimentary, and no one can be confused that a 'compliment' from a man standing too close late at night at a deserted bus stop is threatening.

Has anyone actually suggested that?

 

[Manter]

Has anyone actually suggested that?

It seems to me to have come pretty close at times, tbh

 

[Rushy]

It seems to me to have come pretty close at times, tbh

Seriously? Where? Are people just being careless with the use of the word harassment? I can't recall reading any comments which even come close to implying that comments including bitch and whore are intended to be complimentary or acceptable in anyway.

 

[stethoscope]

That's the thing isn't it? A man making a fairly innocuous comment (maybe a compliment or a request for a number or that you stop and speak to him) might not know if it is going to be well received or not - but then the woman on the other end of it doesn't know if her refusal is going to result in him backing down or in getting verbal abuse or even violence back.

Thing is, I don't mind a bit of interaction, especially in summer, from a guy unsolicited in this way (well, possibly apart from the 'stop and speak to him' which I find can be a demand, not just a pleasantry) if its all good natured/complimentary. I had a young bloke last year do this 'trying his luck', and as I was seeing my boyf at time, I politely said that I was taken. He laughed it off with 'oh well, man has got to try - have a nice day love'. And that was it - as someone who struggles sometimes with my confidence, it actually cheered me up for the rest of the day! It didn't feel pressured.

Which seems to me to be clearly drawn in opposition to those situations on the street whereby a man seems to have no real desire to actually want to interact with you personally/pay you a compliment without any strings attached, and merely wants to assert his ability to tell you (and anyone in earshot) precisely what he thinks of you/about you (usually in terms of your physical attractiveness to him).

 

[goldenecitrone]

I don't know what was different in Berlin but it just didn't seem to be acceptable behaviour at all.

It's full of Germans. Paris is full of Frenchies.

 

[Rushy]

Thing is, I don't mind a bit of interaction, especially in summer, from a guy unsolicited in this way (well, possibly apart from the 'stop and speak to him' which I find is often a demand, not just a pleasant request) if its all good natured/complimentary. I had a young bloke last year do this trying his luck, and as I was at the time with a boyf, I politely said that I was taken. He laughed it off with 'oh well, man has got to try - have a nice day love'. And that was it - as someone who struggles sometimes with my confidence, it actually cheered me up for the rest of the day! It didn't feel pressured.

But from what I can see this is the grey bit. Can you imagine that some women might harassed by this?

Forget about the following it up with abuse - I really can't see that anyone would argue that was acceptable in any way shape or form. The minefield is the more innocuous stuff because it so clearly has the potential to go either way.

 

[weepiper]

But from what I can see this is the grey bit. Can you imagine that some women might harassed by this?

Forget about the following it up with abuse - I really can't see that anyone would argue that was acceptable in any way shape or form. The minefield is the more innocuous stuff because it so clearly has the potential to go either way.

We feel harassed by this because it so often ends up with a mouthful of abuse if you don't give the 'correct' response. And knowing what the 'correct' response is isn't easy sometimes. We feel it's harassing behaviour because we're primed for the 'must be a fucking lesbian, stuck up bitch, didn't want to fuck you anyway' retort.

 

[JimW]

That's how it goes with unsolicited interactions, isn't it? You might not have overly hostile or creepy intent but you can't legislate for how it's going to be taken and there's that thing of not thinking that your personal lack of ill-will has to be set against the constant drip-drip-drip of unwelcome stuff the woman you approach has more than likely dealt with. So while I agree it can clearly sometimes go well, the odds are really against it IMO even if you're not an arsehole.

 

[stethoscope]

But from what I can see this is the grey bit. Can you imagine that some women might harassed by this?

Yes, because there are times when I have felt harassed/uncomfortable myself by this stuff happening. Mainly because its difficult to always know the reaction you're going to get - although you try to 'read' the situation as best as possible.

 

[Rushy]

Numerous times I've had a man say something to me on the street as I'm passing, sexually-oriented and 'complimentary' (that is, a compliment on his terms), and when I've ignored, the torrent of abuse comes straight after - 'fucking ignorant bitch'. If this isn't wielding power because you haven't reacted subserviently to them then what is it?

It's totally unacceptable. But is it power wielding? Frightening as a torrent of vitriol might be I'd wager it's more a desperate lashing out out as a result of an immense sense of lack of power and impotence.

 

[cesare]

It's totally unacceptable. But is it power wielding? Frightening as a torrent of vitriol might be I'd wager it's more a desperate lashing out out as a result of an immense sense of lack of power and impotence.

That might be the reason for it, but the lashing out is an attempt to assert/reassert dominance.

 

[Thimble Queen]

That might be the reason for it, but the lashing out is an attempt to assert/reassert dominance.

Exactly.

 

[Clair De Lune]

As my post on the first page implies, this is my take. Outside of the extreme examples and genuine threats/abuse, it's not as simple saying that blokes are taking a power trip. A regular poster earlier mentioned having felt uplifted by a stranger saying "Good evening" and then after they passed "I was just admiring you". It was welcome and I can understand why. But I can also understand that someone might be made to feel uncomfortable by the same comment. In fact, how the same person might be made to feel uncomfortable by the same comment from a different person or even just on a different day.

I've lost count of the number of times I've seen a guy make what I would consider to be a high risk remark like "hey sexy lady" in the street and, even after a sometimes not very favourable initial reply, very quickly engage in a two way flirty conversation in the middle of the day and even the exchange of numbers. I often see ladies keep on walking past but with a big grin. It seems to me that in many cases it is about trying to get noticed (and I'm not suggesting that only those who are lacking in confidence and attention want to be noticed) rather than a power trip. And it is pretty common place around here because, from what I have seen, many women respond positively to it.

Sometimes we smile simply because we don't want the pricks to know they have got to us and we just grin and walk on. Cos that's how it feels...not like a compliment but that they are invading my space and leering at me...often with a crude call of some kind. I am trying to go buy milk ffs, I don't need this shit.
Personally I am a fan of shouting back or giving them the middle finger as I walk off, but not every woman likes to engage with them even that much.

 

[stethoscope]

It's totally unacceptable. But is it power wielding? Frightening as a torrent of vitriol might be I'd wager it's more a desperate lashing out out as a result of an immense sense of lack of power and impotence.

The man initiates the situation unsolicited, and doesn't get the response he wants? So, surely, any kind of 'lashing out' is therefore driven by him asserting his dominance/power?

 

[Thora]

But from what I can see this is the grey bit. Can you imagine that some women might harassed by this?

Forget about the following it up with abuse - I really can't see that anyone would argue that was acceptable in any way shape or form. The minefield is the more innocuous stuff because it so clearly has the potential to go either way.

OK, but this "minefield" is so small that is it even worth discussing in relation to street harassment? Occasionally there's an unsolicited interaction which isn't harassing, but I don't think it really throws up a grey area or means that it is a minefield for blokes who just want to pick up strangers in the street.

It feels like it is minimising the impact of street harassment tbh.

 

[Clair De Lune]

To me it seems fucking obvious the difference between chatting someone up and engaging in this sort of neanderthal shouting from scaffolding/vehicles or a huddle of other cretins. To chat someone up is to engage them in conversation. To show a little politeness and respect and be aware that if the recipient is not as eager as you, you should back off.

 

[Manter]

Seriously? Where? Are people just being careless with the use of the word harassment? I can't recall reading any comments which even come close to implying that comments including bitch and whore are intended to be complimentary or acceptable in anyway.

I didn't say that- the point I was trying to make is that a series of (male, I think) posters have brought in the whole talking to people in the street thing, people just trying to be friendly, innocuous comments that get taken the wrong way etc. I honestly don't think that is a big/serious problem- the time and context is usually pretty clear, and men can't be surprised at the reactions they get if they are putting a woman in a situation where she feels threatened. IMO, a genuine compliment is almost always taken as such, but a genuine compliment is not shouting nice arse at someone as you walk past- ot's a compliment you might pay a friend- that you'd be comfortable if your sister overheard. It is completely different to chatting to someone in the street, I am more than happy to strike up a conversation with a stranger; but it's a conversation, not a "leer and response". To mix the two up is, IMO, the start of the feminism has gone too far/ women are over sensitive slope. Talk to women by all means, but treat them as humans- if it's a situation where she may feel threatened, don't. If she looks uncomfortable after your initial approach, back off- apologise, even. I'm not saying you don't do any of those things, I'm just saying that cutting out all public interaction in case it gets misunderstood is an overreaction (and risks being reductio ad absurdum to make a point- oh, i daren't even smile at a pretty girl anymore because these humourless feminists blah blah).

 

[Rushy]

That might be the reason for it, but the lashing out is an attempt to assert/reassert dominance.

Sure. But as you say, it is an attempt rather than an actual reassertion of power. That person knows they don't have the power to get what they want. Either way, it's shit and unacceptable.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Have we had a woman who's taken issue with it being a power trip yet? Only it seems like a lot of us perceive it to be about that, and a couple of men have disputed that it is.

I think there's possibly an element of "it can't be a power trip, 'cos I've done it, and I didn't mean no harm/get off on it" going on.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's quite interesting that a thread that started off about sexual harassment has become "maybe it's banter/flirting/interactions that is taken the wrong way". It doesn't seem to me that there is actually a big grey area or fine line - most of the unwanted attention directed towards women that has been noted on this thread is aggressive, humiliating or threatening.

The old old story of some men not being prepared to take responsibility/accept the fact that some males are predatory fucks, and therefore viewing any conception of some men as such as being wrongheaded/misinformed/lesbo-feminazi, perhaps?

 

[5t3IIa]

It's totally unacceptable. But is it power wielding? Frightening as a torrent of vitriol might be I'd wager it's more a desperate lashing out out as a result of an immense sense of lack of power and impotence.

Yes, it is frightening. You seem to be suggesting that we should not be frightened of a shouting man because he's shouting because he's weak and impotent, and not intending to terrify and intimidate me? I'm still being shouted at

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's overwhelmingly felt about men exercising their power over me when this stuff happens. And the unsolicited sort of stuff being primarily talked about here is very different to the what is genuine pleasant comments you sometimes get from what I usually find are older men (and hark back to more 'old fashioned' values).

The occasion where I actually stood up and made a quick retort back to a guy's verbal and sexual abuse near my flat when I was back in Stratford, he proceeded to follow me almost up to my doorstep. Whilst he did so, he didn't say anything else, or try and physically assault me, but just did his best to intimidate. It worked.

Numerous times I've had a man say something to me on the street as I'm passing, sexually-oriented and 'complimentary' (that is, a compliment on his terms), and when I've ignored, the torrent of abuse comes straight after - 'fucking ignorant bitch'. If this isn't wielding power because you haven't reacted subserviently to them then what is it?

And when being perceived as trans/queer is also part of that equation, that sexually-oriented/gender-based dynamic soon breaks into homophobia/misogyny - whether you react or not. Regardless of the initial comment ('nice legs sexy', wolf-whistle), then follows the accusations that 'you might be a man', 'didn't fancy you anyway ugly bitch'. Very much again, the male perpetrator employing a power dynamic to express that you are lesser than him/don't conform/meet 'his standards'.

Part of it is also that you're refusing to "fulfill your role" and accept your place as lesser than him. That annoys and confuses the kind of dickbrains who go in for this sort of abuse, and long may it do so.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think the line between flirting with a stranger and being a huge cunt is quite clearly defined in most men's eyes. Unfortunately the remainder (of men) are pretty busy blokes.

You say "blokes", I say "wilfully-ignorant, wilfully-immature meatsacks".

 

[Manter]

Yes, it is frightening. You seem to be suggesting that we should not be frightened of a shouting man because he's shouting because he's weak and impotent, and not intending to terrify and intimidate me? I'm still being shouted at

Yes- this- but also being shouted at by someone who nine times out of ten is physically stronger than you and, if he wanted to, could hurt you quite badly. I'm not doing the all men are rapists crap, but I think a serious issue that can be underestimated is that women are often physically vulnerable, or are made to feel physically vulnerable when they are being verbally abused. And the shouting from a car, group of mates or whatever, even if it comes from a male feeling of rejection and powerlessness, exacerbates, for me, that feeling of vulnerability.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's totally unacceptable. But is it power wielding? Frightening as a torrent of vitriol might be I'd wager it's more a desperate lashing out out as a result of an immense sense of lack of power and impotence.

A desperate lashing out by the same usual suspects day after day in some areas?
If you were talking about one-off incidents by disparate disenfranchised males I might agree with you, but it's often the same little ensemble of creeps, hanging round the same handfull of locations, that spew out this stuff. That doesn't speak to me of the desperate lashing out of someone who's socially and/or economically disempowered, it speaks to me of learned behaviour whose exertion is primarily as a stimulant and entertainment for said creeps, and (as you may or may not have noted) is generally only exerted against targets who appear unlikely to react physically to the verbals. I'm not sure that if it were "as a result of an immense lack of power", it'd be quite so selective with targets.