Repression at Cambridge

[JimW]

Troll or pillock?

Let's not be hasty, might be both.

 

[mister_shine]

I'm not a fish.

 

[DotCommunist]

There's a good book about it (http://www.sup.org/book.cgi?id=16889) and it really does seem to have been linked with maintaining an elite education system, particularly that space it opened for a compromise between old intellectual and new political elites.

I heard most of the rulers were of engineering education back in the day- trufax or garbled?

 

[CyberRose]

Why would an elite institution transmitting privilege exist post-revolution?#

Its function is dead in this world never mind the next.

Well that depends on your definition of "exist". In its current form as an institution educating the wealthy and privileged, then of course it won't exist in that function. But I was simply referring to the education of students. Why would that be taken away? Surely the only difference would be entrance criteria?

There's a good book about it (http://www.sup.org/book.cgi?id=16889) and it really does seem to have been linked with maintaining an elite education system, particularly that space it opened for a compromise between old intellectual and new political elites.

Suppose that depends on what is taught. If it's nothing of much use to society (and I speak as someone with a degree in politics so I know the irony in saying this) like art or philosophy (which, post revolution, should be available to all who want to learn about it) then yes it will reinforce an elite. I was more thinking along the lines that as much as Oxbridge is for posh people, surely they must have vast experience and knowledge on some pretty important subjects like science for example that I cannot fathom why anyone would want to lose that?

 

[CyberRose]

I heard most of the rulers were of engineering education back in the day- trufax or garbled?

Ah well if that's true it would go against what I just said (altho I'd have expected engineers to be, well, engineering, rather than getting their degree and taking up a cushy elitist job)

 

[DotCommunist]

does oxbridge turn out legions of scientists or tossers with PPE's?

 

[CyberRose]

does oxbridge turn out legions of scientists or tossers with PPE's?

The fuck do I know!!!

(It would do when I've crowned myself emperor after you lot have staged the revolution, as would all other unis)

 

[butchersapron]

Personally, come the revolution I'd send the brightest prospects from the working classes to places like Cambridge so they can build on their potential for the benefit of all in the new society. But then I suppose I don't exactly have the mindset of the typical lefty?

 

[JimW]

I heard most of the rulers were of engineering education back in the day- trufax or garbled?

That's what Andreas looks at in that book, that what they call the third generation of leaders included a lot of Qinghua engineers.

...
Suppose that depends on what is taught. If it's nothing of much use to society (and I speak as someone with a degree in politics so I know the irony in saying this) like art or philosophy (which, post revolution, should be available to all who want to learn about it) then yes it will reinforce an elite. I was more thinking along the lines that as much as Oxbridge is for posh people, surely they must have vast experience and knowledge on some pretty important subjects like science for example that I cannot fathom why anyone would want to lose that?

One of his big points is that, no, it's not about the content of the education, it's this maintaining an elite space and the practice of grooming an elite - there was a whole 'red or expert?' or even 'red and expert' debate.

 

[mister_shine]

</troll mode>Oi, butchers: If you want to empower me then stand still so I can get a clear head shot. You ain't sending me nowhere. <troll mode>

 

[CyberRose]

One of his big points is that, no, it's not about the content of the education, it's this maintaining an elite space and the practice of grooming an elite - there was a whole 'red or expert?' or even 'red and expert' debate.

When you say 'grooming an elite' do you mean the intention was that these people went to uni to be educated as future leaders, rather than learning a vocation (as the primary reason for being there?)

 

[Fruitloop]

does oxbridge turn out legions of scientists or tossers with PPE's?

IME Oxford seemed much posher with more of the sons and daughters of the landed gentry and people who think they're going to be PM. Cambridge is the training ground of the hereditary intelligentsia, less people whose daddy is an earl but a lot of them whose parents are professors and the like.

 

[JimW]

When you say 'grooming an elite' do you mean the intention was that these people went to uni to be educated as future leaders, rather than learning a vocation (as the primary reason for being there?)

Bit more complicated - the stated intention was more like what you hope for, creating skilled experts to serve the revolution/people, but the social practice was the creation of and binding together of an elite.

 

[CyberRose]

So it was a consequence, rather than a new elite wanting to cement their position?

 

[butchersapron]

So it was a consequence, rather than a new elite wanting to cement their position?

Of what?

 

[JimW]

So it was a consequence, rather than a new elite wanting to cement their position?

If you mean, did the maintenance of an elite institution mean that good intentions (sincere or not) meant nothing in the face of the social relationships that entailed, then it does seem to have been a consequence.

 

[CyberRose]

Of what?

Of the universities

 

[smmudge]

Suppose that depends on what is taught. If it's nothing of much use to society (and I speak as someone with a degree in politics so I know the irony in saying this) like art or philosophy (which, post revolution, should be available to all who want to learn about it) then yes it will reinforce an elite.

Why would art and philosophy not be of much 'use' to a society? What do you mean by 'use'?

 

[CyberRose]

If you mean, did the maintenance of an elite institution mean that good intentions (sincere or not) meant nothing in the face of the social relationships that entailed, then it does seem to have been a consequence.

Ok so what was the conclusion of the author on how that could have been avoided (I'm going on the assumption that top quality education institutions would be desirable/necessary in any society, let alone a post-revolution society)

 

[JimW]

Ok so what was the conclusion of the author on how that could have been avoided (I'm going on the assumption that top quality education institutions would be desirable/necessary in any society, let alone a post-revolution society)

His is a work of social history so he's not personally suggesting alternatives, but he covers the debates that Chinese people had at the time, as many could see where it was going and pointed it out, and those were some of the tensions that erupted during the Cultural Revolution. The wider debate including a questioning of whether 'top quality institutions' were necessary or desirable at all. Bit wide-ranging to sum up here, but there was the idea that something that required elite reproduction might have no place in a communist society.

 

[fen_boy]

</troll mode>Oi, butchers: If you want to empower me then stand still so I can get a clear head shot. You ain't sending me nowhere. <troll mode>

<pedant>You've got your tags back to front</pedant>

 

[CyberRose]

Why would art and philosophy not be of much 'use' to a society? What do you mean by 'use'?

Why don't you tell me?

 

[smmudge]

Why don't you tell me?

Because you were the one who asserted it.

 

[butchersapron]

 

[Pickman's model]

 

[Blagsta]

I'm not a fish.

I beg to differ.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

His is a work of social history so he's not personally suggesting alternatives, but he covers the debates that Chinese people had at the time, as many could see where it was going and pointed it out, and those were some of the tensions that erupted during the Cultural Revolution. The wider debate including a questioning of whether 'top quality institutions' were necessary or desirable at all. Bit wide-ranging to sum up here, but there was the idea that something that required elite reproduction might have no place in a communist society.

Isn't the main problem the privilege in the wider society? More specifically, simply the wealth gap? Shrink that and such elite institutions lose some of their socially elitist (as opposed to intellectually elitist) allure.

That and the education system below universities, which is where the real social stratification takes place, imo.

 

[fogbat]

Let's not be hasty, might be both.

Total troll. Like Lynch after a car accident.