Refugee crisis. Something on the scale of the Marshall plan required?

[Pickman's model]

Pope Francis’s appeal to entrepreneurs

yeh cos capitalists always know best

 

[ViolentPanda]

Where do you get that from?

From UK media reports over the last several months; from a report from Red Crescent mentioned onNewsnight; from an article in (IIRC) Der Spiegel's English section.

Obviously, as an American Welshman who'll soon take on Turkish nationality,thus making you an expert on the practices and cultures of the UK, the USA and the Muslim world, you'll know different.

 

[ViolentPanda]

VP's resting at the moment. It's been repeatedly stated in the media (online as well as on paper) that the current wave of Syrian refugees are mostly doctors or similar, in terms of education and training. Don't believe me? Use google and your fingers.

Edited to add: Come to think of it, next time you feel the urge to troll, try using google and your fingers.

He does use his fingers. And his thumb.
Just not for googling.

 

[ViolentPanda]

on the basis that something might happen...

biggie smalls
biggie smalls
biggie smalls

Why are you trying to summon my underwear?

 

[Greebo]

He does use his fingers. And his thumb.
Just not for googling.

Really sweetie, I do wish you'd stop implying what Dwyer does. Particularly on a more serious thread than usual.

 

[phildwyer]

sweetie

VP sleeping on the sofa tonight eh?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Parliament voted against allowing British troops to join the attack on Syria.

They voted against "direct involvement", i.e. substantive numbers of "boots on the ground" on permanent deployment.
Indirect involvement (a trick that's been used in military situations about as long as the UK has had a permanent standing army), such as temporarily deploying infantry and artillery "instructors"; logistics units to assist with aid efforts, and aircraft to provide "air-screening" and "air defence" cover, is another thing entirely, and "mission creep" from defensive to offensive roles happens more often than it doesn't.

 

[phildwyer]

From UK media reports over the last several months; from a report from Red Crescent mentioned onNewsnight; from an article in (IIRC) Der Spiegel's English section.

I already checked Spiegel, and found only indications that the Syrian refugees, like most refugees, are the most impoverished people of their nation. If you've seen evidence that they're mostly "professionals," as you claim, please post it. For some reason, your word isn't enough.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Then what's the point of having a Parliamentary vote on the issue? What's the point of having a Parliament at all, come to that? I hope they're held to account over this.

Political cover.

 

[terapija]

I already checked Spiegel, and found only indications that the Syrian refugees, like most refugees, are the most impoverished people of their nation. If you've seen evidence that they're mostly "professionals," as you claim, please post it. For some reason, your word isn't enough.

i understand you but i dont see how that changes anything. those who came here had some money saved up and were able to pay traffickers to get them into greece. even if every one of them still has 2000 euros in their pockets that money wont last long.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I already checked Spiegel, and found only indications that the Syrian refugees, like most refugees, are the most impoverished people of their nation. If you've seen evidence that they're mostly "professionals," as you claim, please post it. For some reason, your word isn't enough.

My word isn't enough for you. That's tough.
Of course, we both know the "reason" for that isn't that my word isn't good (it's been good enough for the Urbanites I interact with outside of Urban), it's that you have a psychological flaw which means that you have to do down anyone who doesn't submit to your (often poorly-based) authority.

 

[phildwyer]

i understand you but i dont see how that changes anything. those who came here had some money saved up and were able to pay traffickers to get them into greece. even if every one of them still has 2000 euros in their pockets that money wont last long.

The professional classes usually have too much at stake in their home country to leave in such a dangerous and disorganized fashion. Not that it makes a substantive difference, but I suspect VP was talking crap.

 

[phildwyer]

They voted against "direct involvement", i.e. substantive numbers of "boots on the ground" on permanent deployment.

Wrong again. They voted against "military action that is legal, proportionate and focused on saving lives."

Translated, that means they voted against any military action at all.

 

[teqniq]

I would imagine that middle-class professionals or their equivalent in Syrian society would be the the main component of a refugee exodus due to the fact that they are far more likely to have the financial means to make this possible. This makes it almost inevitable that by the time and if they are lucky enough to make it as far as Europe that they are completely impoverished.

 

[Greebo]

VP sleeping on the sofa tonight eh?

Wishing you were sleeping in a bed, eh?

 

[Greebo]

i understand you but i dont see how that changes anything. those who came here had some money saved up and were able to pay traffickers to get them into greece. even if every one of them still has 2000 euros in their pockets that money wont last long.

It's not merely a question of money in the pocket, it's a question of transferrable skills. Also, better educated or more highly qualified people will be more likely to be highly literate in at least their mother tongue, therefore more able to learn the language of their host country.

 

[weltweit]

Apparently, after a petition reached 100,000 signatures in one day, Cameron is about to announce that Britain will take more refugees.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Wrong again. They voted against "military action that is legal, proportionate and focused on saving lives."

Translated, that means they voted against any military action at all.

Nope, it means they voted against military action that is "legal, proportionate and focused on saving lives".
In other words, non-proportionate action aimed at supporting efforts other than saving lives - providing "instructors" and logisticians, for example,weren't voted against.

 

[teqniq]

Apparently, after a petition reached 100,000 signatures in one day, Cameron is about to announce that Britain will take more refugees.

yup

Cameron bows to pressure to allow more Syrian refugees into Britain

 

[ViolentPanda]

Really sweetie, I do wish you'd stop implying what Dwyer does. Particularly on a more serious thread than usual.

I was only hinting at his penchant for fisting himself.

 

[teqniq]

Where is the mind bleach?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Apparently, after a petition reached 100,000 signatures in one day, Cameron is about to announce that Britain will take more refugees.

Been mutterings about this since Monday, unsurprisingly. The interesting thing will be whether the announcement constitutes a meaningful effort to assist with the crisis, or just another bit of window dressing by the Tories that's designed to disguise their "devil take the hindmost" ideology.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Where is the mind bleach?

That's pretty much what Greebo said.

 

[teqniq]

Been mutterings about this since Monday, unsurprisingly. The interesting thing will be whether the announcement constitutes a meaningful effort to assist with the crisis, or just another bit of window dressing by the Tories that's designed to disguise their "devil take the hindmost" ideology.

Yes, from the linked article above

Those selected to come to the UK will be drawn from the UNHCR camps on the border of Syria. It is not expected that the UK will allow the number to be as high as tens of thousands.

Cameron remains convinced that accepting large number of Syrian refugees who are already in Europe will make the crisis worse and encourage more chaos, since it will only incentivise more people to undertake the risky journey from the Middle East.

 

[phildwyer]

Nope, it means they voted against military action that is "legal, proportionate and focused on saving lives".
In other words, non-proportionate action aimed at supporting efforts other than saving lives - providing "instructors" and logisticians, for example,weren't voted against.

Nonsense. The vote was clearly against any kind of military action. And now it has been disregarded.

 

[ViolentPanda]

yup

Cameron bows to pressure to allow more Syrian refugees into Britain

"Thousands more", which could mean "thousands over the next X years", but which the Tories will be hoping is read as "thousands straight away", so they can get out of the shit-pit they've dug for themselves.

 

[Lancman]

My experience in Lebanon during the civil war that the better educated people stayed to look after the shop and sent their well educated children abroad.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Nonsense. The vote was clearly against any kind of military action. And now it has been disregarded.

 

[teqniq]

"Thousands more", which could mean "thousands over the next X years", but which the Tories will be hoping is read as "thousands straight away", so they can get out of the shit-pit they've dug for themselves.

Pretty much. The pressure needs to be maintained and people need to be reminded what a complete arsehole he and his associates are.

 

[J Ed]

Interesting that Cameron has chosen to take in people from source rather than Calais or elsewhere in Europe.