Refugee crisis. Something on the scale of the Marshall plan required?

[Libertad]

The hypocrisy.

 

[8den]

After the distressing images from yesterday I've set up a standing order with moas.eu. They're an NGO operating a rescue boat in the med and have to date rescued 3,000 people at sea.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Mind you, one has to wonder how Germany is going to house 800,000 new people this year?

You're kidding, right?
There are large towns and cities in the former east running at about 60-80% of the population capacity they had in '89 (last time Greebo and I were there, there was a prog on Cottbus where the burgermeister compared the place to a "ghost-town"), with mothballed public housing that can be brought back into use cheaply and quickly. Even in terms of dispersal, there are enough former military barracks to set up a Germany-wide system of transit camps.

 

[not-bono-ever]

Houses can be bought for pennies in the ost. Good solid houses that need little work to get them back into circulation.

 

[weltweit]

You're kidding, right?
There are large towns and cities in the former east running at about 60-80% of the population capacity they had in '89 (last time Greebo and I were there, there was a prog on Cottbus where the burgermeister compared the place to a "ghost-town"), with mothballed public housing that can be brought back into use cheaply and quickly. Even in terms of dispersal, there are enough former military barracks to set up a Germany-wide system of transit camps.

Yes, if you had read the thread VP you would see that Greebo had already pointed this out and I had agreed with her.

 

[kebabking]

You're kidding, right?
There are large towns and cities in the former east running at about 60-80% of the population capacity they had in '89 (last time Greebo and I were there, there was a prog on Cottbus where the burgermeister compared the place to a "ghost-town"), with mothballed public housing that can be brought back into use cheaply and quickly. Even in terms of dispersal, there are enough former military barracks to set up a Germany-wide system of transit camps.

not disputing what you say, or suggesting that it should not be done, but doesn't Germany have a problem that while it has a great deal of housing and facilities in the East going spare, what it doesn't have going spare in the East is jobs...

this arrangement is fine if Germany is talking about temporary support to people who will, in time, either go west or return to their home countries, but if the suggestion is that Germany should put 800,000 into place with few jobs, and then another 800,000 the year after ad nausuem, and immagining them staying there, then its just filling the East with greater unemployment - which of course will have follow on consequences.

i'm not suggestting that such a fate is worse than geing in Syria, or spending your life in a railway station in Hungary, but its not a panacea.

 

[Idris2002]

A lot of the old GDR is underpopulated and is crying out for people of working and childbearing/childraising age to work in areas where a scary proportion of the locals are either too old or too ill to work. Plenty of empty or near empty housing in those areas too, the problem will be finding the money for integration (mostly language and conversion of qualifications).

Can confirm, live in the old GDR. Where I am is picking up, but still has quite a few empty blocks.

 

[Greebo]

Yes, if you had read the thread VP you would see that Greebo had already pointed this out and I had agreed with her.

VP keeps different hours to me, at least online. Also, because of his memory problems, he doesn't read to the end of a thread before replying.

 

[ViolentPanda]

not disputing what you say, or suggesting that it should not be done, but doesn't Germany have a problem that while it has a great deal of housing and facilities in the East going spare, what it doesn't have going spare in the East is jobs...

this arrangement is fine if Germany is talking about temporary support to people who will, in time, either go west or return to their home countries, but if the suggestion is that Germany should put 800,000 into place with few jobs, and then another 800,000 the year after ad nausuem, and immagining them staying there, then its just filling the East with greater unemployment - which of course will have follow on consequences.

i'm not suggestting that such a fate is worse than geing in Syria, or spending your life in a railway station in Hungary, but its not a panacea.

From what I can make out, there's been concerted efforts through infrastructure and other investment by the state and the lande to create sustainable industrial and service sector employment, so there's an "uptick" on that front, and I suspect that the state is taking a mild punt that the refugees (a majority of whom are the "professional" class) will act as an economic stimulus, rather than a brake on further economic and social progress in the east.
And I don't believe the intent is to"flood" the east with refugees, but rather that pragmatism dictates that during this phase of the crisis, it's best to use easily-available space first, while preparing to seed the refugees throughout the country as a whole.

 

[brogdale]

This headline from today's 'Telegraph' is some measure of the political mess that Cameron has created of this humanitarian crisis....

 

[teqniq]

It would be high irony and a long time coming if the refugee crisis which Cameron and his colleagues have used to play the xenophobia card, blew up in their faces.

 

[phildwyer]

the refugees (a majority of whom are the "professional" class)

Where do you get that from?

 

[Pickman's model]

Where do you get that from?

if you have evidence to contradict ViolentPanda perhaps you should post it up now.

 

[kebabking]

It would be high irony and a long time coming if the refugee crisis which Cameron and his colleagues have used to play the xenophobia card, blew up in their faces.

indeed it would - Camerons' problem is that not only can he not resist jumping on a bandwagon, he is unable to see when he should jump off it.

to call him a lightweight is to insult lightweights....

 

[phildwyer]

if you have evidence to contradict ViolentPanda perhaps you should post it up now.

Be quiet Pickman's. Nobody has asked you anything.

 

[Pickman's model]

Be quiet Pickman's. Nobody has asked you anything.

i asked you to post up any evidence you have contradicting ViolentPanda. your reaction shows you have no evidence and are just trolling.

 

[phildwyer]

i asked you to post up any evidence you have contradicting ViolentPanda. your reaction shows you have no evidence and are just trolling.

Fool, I asked him a question. Nothing more. And certainly nothing to do with you. Now shut up.

 

[Greebo]

Where do you get that from?

VP's resting at the moment. It's been repeatedly stated in the media (online as well as on paper) that the current wave of Syrian refugees are mostly doctors or similar, in terms of education and training. Don't believe me? Use google and your fingers.

Edited to add: Come to think of it, next time you feel the urge to troll, try using google and your fingers.

 

[Pickman's model]

Fool, I asked him a question. Nothing more. And certainly nothing to do with you. Now shut up.

i asked you a question: have you any evidence to contradict ViolentPanda?

 

[phildwyer]

VP's resting at the moment. It's been repeatedly stated in the media (online as well as on paper) that the current wave of Syrian refugees are mostly doctors or similar, in terms of education and training. Don't believe me? Use google and your fingers.

Sorry, I've been following the story and have seen nothing to suggest that most of the refugees are professionals. It might be true, though it seems unlikely. If you have any evidence, why not post it?

 

[Pickman's model]

Sorry, I've been following the story and have seen nothing to suggest that most of the refugees are professionals. It might be true, though it seems unlikely. If you have any evidence, why not post it?

have you seen anything to contradict ViolentPanda tho?

 

[Greebo]

<snip> If you have any evidence, why not post it?

Why not use google? You seem over the age of needing spoonfeeding.

 

[Manter]

Andrew Michell MP has just said on newsnight that Britain is doing more to help refugee's than any other country, by helping in Syria.
He said it three times.

Fucking hell <<sigh>>

 

[Pickman's model]

Why not use google? You seem over the age of needing spoonfeeding.

chances are anyone spoonfeeding him would make an improvised 'shiv' out of the implement very quickly after meeting the prof.

 

[Pickman's model]

Andrew Michell MP has just said on newsnight that Britain is doing more to help refugee's than any other country, by helping in Syria.
He said it three times.

on the basis that something might happen...

biggie smalls
biggie smalls
biggie smalls

 

[phildwyer]

Why not use google? You seem over the age of needing spoonfeeding.

Tried Google, can't find anything to confirm your claim. Can you?

 

[Treacle Toes]

Dick wavers, fuck off. Selfish cunts.

 

[Sirena]

Andrew Michell MP has just said on newsnight that Britain is doing more to help refugee's than any other country, by helping in Syria.
He said it three times.

He's probably referring to this

First British Pilots In Airstrikes Over Syria

 

[phildwyer]

He's probably referring to this

First British Pilots In Airstrikes Over Syria

That's got to be illegal.

 

[Pickman's model]

I've posted this as there doesn't seem to be anything recent that deals solely with this issue. I know there's the Calais thread but that's more of a resource for individuals who wish to help. The scale of the issue is vast imo; in the Middle East the primary driver is the war in Syria as evidenced by this article but there are many refugees from other countries too. It really requires a concerted response from governments as they are the entities with the resources to provide aid and assistance The people of Germany at least are setting a good example and the government there is too. But here instead in the UK we are presented with the likes of Theresa May using dog-whistle psychology to appeal to the little Englanders and unfortunately it seems to appeal to a lot of people. The number of xenophobic comments in that article are frankly depressing. It makes me ashamed to be English tbh.

So what is to be done, or is anything to be done at all?

in reply to your question here and your question in the title, there has to a) be the will among governments - particularly governments in the middle east - that ending the conflicts which drive people to europe is a good thing. that does not seem to be the case, as the wars in iraq / syria / yemen / libya / afghanistan are either caused by the actions of western governments, proxy wars for other countries or a mixture of the two; and b) the will that there should be a proper, equitable settlement in the middle east to replace the failed sykes-picot, including a resolution of the palestine question; and c) a decision to make the funds available after any such general peace to rebuild the middle east - and not to impose conditions on how those countries are in future governed - there can be no imposition of democracy or dictatorship, it ought to be up to each country's population to decide on their mode of government - in other words, no interference from washington or elsewhere, no further coups or air wars etc.

so there you have it. ain't going to happen.