Pubs we've lost 2014-2015: The Grosvenor, Stockwell and the Canterbury Arms, Brixton

[Rushy]

I've described in detail the reasons why he wanted to move on, but it seems pointless repeating them again because you've already said what you 'believe' to be true, despite having no actual real knowledge of the place or any contact with the landlord.

But there's no need for you to keep on implying that the landlord is lying or that I'm making it up - try reading what han wrote back in December. She plays there regularly and has done so for years.

So - just for clarity for a silly billy like me (because you have not actually said it yet):

You confirm that the landlord has categorically told you that he has not sold on, nor received financial compensation in return for giving up the remaining years of his lease?

 

[editor]

You confirm that the landlord has categorically told you that he has not sold on, nor received compensation in return for giving up the remaining years of his lease?

Have I ever made such a claim? No, so you can shove your latest attempts at deceitful twisting and misrepresentation.

I explained the reasons why he has decided to leave the pub, and you then accused him of not having any 'punk rock integrity' and of being a liar.

So on that basis, I'l be fucked if I'll play along with any more of your ill-informed and unpleasant attempts to slur the owner of a pub you know fuck all about.

 

[leanderman]

I think you forgot to answer the point.

See post 123.

 

[cuppa tee]

I've made clear in several posts that I don't think a financial arrangement would put his integrity in doubt. I guess you could continue to pretend that I had not clarified that several times Cuppa.

but as you admitted earlier your mission here has been to make the version of events as laid out by the editor look like a misrepresentation and since that particular angle failed you have been back tracking on it, the fact you have agreed the pub as we know it will be closing because of gentrification and with the landlords integrity intact makes me think you might be flogging a dead horse on this occasion.

 

[Rushy]

Have I ever made such a claim? No, so you can shove your latest attempts at deceitful twisting and misrepresentation.

I explained the reasons why he has decided to leave the pub, and you then accused him of not having any 'punk rock integrity' and of being a liar.

I think that answers it really. You've aggressively and repeatedly dismissed questions about the wording of your report - sorry, post - which have been raised by at least 4 different people. And now it turns out that after all that ranting, bluster and name calling, you don't actually have enough information to really be sure whether they are right or wrong. You were just having a pop because you couldn't stand anyone doubting your simplistic black & white, good vs. evil account of the facts. Well done. I'm sure your buddy will be really pleased with the way you have seized every opportunity to use him as a shield try to deflect criticism of your own predictable repetitive rhetoric, by pretending that people are criticising him. Total genius.

 

[Rushy]

That's a full stop for me on this one.

 

[editor]

That's a full stop for me on this one.

Good. Next time you open your trap, I hope it's on a topic you actually know something about rather than another stream of your 'ill informed,' grudge-laden bullshit.

Your attempt to belittle the integrity of someone you've never even met speaks volumes of the paucity of your arguments, and your constant ad hominems have added nothing to the debate.

Therefore, I'd be grateful if you'd make that 'full stop' even bigger and don't respond or refer to any more of my posts in the future, and I'd happily do the same to yours. I believe that would be of benefit to the forum as a whole.

 

[Rushy]

Good. Next time you open your trap, I hope it's on a topic you actually know something about rather than another stream of your 'ill informed,' grudge-laden bullshit.

Your attempt to belittle the integrity of someone you've never even met speaks volumes of the paucity of your arguments, and your constant ad hominems have added nothing to the debate.

Therefore, I'd be grateful if you'd make that 'full stop' even bigger and don't respond or refer to any more of my posts in the future, and I'd happily do the same to yours. I believe that would be of benefit to the forum as a whole.

Speak up! I can barely hear you from behind that mountain of sandbags you have so carefully hand crafted out of your buddy's intergrity.

 

[Rushy]

I have had a warning about inappropriate content now so I will "shut my trap" before my account is limited, as has been threatened.

 

[isvicthere?]

Speak up! I can barely hear you from behind that mountain of sandbags you have so carefully hand crafted out of your buddy's intergrity.

Two posts after your "full stop" and you're back? Shortest flounce ever!

 

[Rushy]

Two posts after your "full stop" and you're back? Shortest flounce ever!

Yes well, I felt different after my second coffee.

 

[leanderman]

So - just for clarity for a silly billy like me (because you have not actually said it yet):

You confirm that the landlord has categorically told you that he has not sold on, nor received financial compensation in return for giving up the remaining years of his lease?

Can a tenant assign a pub lease to anyone else?

Or does it have to return to the freeholder if he/she gives it up?

 

[Rushy]

Can a tenant assign a pub lease to anyone else?

Or does it have to return to the freeholder if he/she gives it up?

Normally they are free to sell it. E.g. Mango Landing was being sold to Kaff (until, I have been told, the huge bill for dilapidations chargeable to Mango was revealed by the freeholder).

There may be exclusions to that. Sometimes the freeholder can object to a transfer to a particular individual or company if they can show that they are inappropriate (history of trouble, bankruptcy,etc..).

Once the lease runs out there is usually an automatic right to renewal. That right can be opposed by the freeholder on the grounds that a building is to be redeveloped. In such a case statutory compensation would be payable to the tenant of between 1 ad 2 times the rateable value of the property, depending on how long they have been there.

 

[leanderman]

Normally they are free to sell it. E.g. Mango Landing was being sold to Kaff (until, I have been told, the huge bill for dilapidations chargeable to Mango was revealed by the freeholder).

There may be exclusions to that. Sometimes the freeholder can object to a transfer to a particular individual or company if they can show that they are inappropriate (history of trouble, bankruptcy,etc..).

Once the lease runs out there is usually an automatic right to renewal. That right can be opposed by the freeholder on the grounds that a building is to be redeveloped. In such a case statutory compensation would be payable to the tenant of between 1 ad 2 times the rateable value of the property, depending on how long they have been there.

So does this mean the pub tenant could, in theory, pass the lease to someone who wanted to try to keep the pub going, in some form or other? And save it from being converted to flats?

 

[Rushy]

So does this mean the pub tenant could, in theory, pass the lease to someone who wanted to try to keep the pub going, in some form or other?

Usually. But I'd imagine that would be pretty tricky to do if the tenancy only had a small number years to go and notice had already been served that renewal would be opposed on the grounds of redevelopment.

And save it from being converted to flats?

Well, it already is flats upstairs by all accounts - I don't think anyone is suggesting that the whole building is being converted although that may be applied for. Who knows?
If notice is served that the freeholder wants the building back at the end of the tenancy, they can't stop the freeholder redeveloping the building by selling it on to a new tenant. The new tenant would still have to leave at the end of the tenancy (and would receive compensation) whenever that may be.

 

[cuppa tee]

some new images here of what is to replace the Canterbury Arms..............

http://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/...2142.article?blocktitle=London&contentID=7920

http://www.bdonline.co.uk/planners-toast-units-brixton-scheme/5068211.article

Unit partner Ross Hutchinson said Lambeth council’s approval for the development would kick-start the regeneration of the neighbourhood.
“The site represents an important gateway into the wider East Brixton Regeneration Arc area,” he said.
“By being the first scheme to secure approval in this strategic regeneration location, we hope our scheme will set the tone and quality of design for others to follow.”

Proposals also include using a floor tile from the pub to line the residential entrance lobby, providing a link back to the site’s past,

 

[boohoo]

so slightly interesting design at the bottom with bland run of the mill new housing on the top - Lambeth must be so proud.

 

[Onket]

I have had a warning about inappropriate content now so I will "shut my trap" before my account is limited, as has been threatened.

This appears to be more common than I thought! incredible.

 

[cuppa tee]

This appears to be more common than I thought! incredible.

please do not derail discussion of the architectural merits of this landmark building by perpetuating this little squabble , thank you

 

[Onket]

please do not derail discussion of the architectural merits of this landmark building by perpetuating this little squabble , thank you

I'll reply to whichever posts I like, thanks. And if people want to reply to my posts, like you have, that's fine.

 

[Rushy]

so slightly interesting design at the bottom with bland run of the mill new housing on the top - Lambeth must be so proud.

Gotta disagree with you Boohoo. Putting aside what is being lost, I quite like the design.

Just not sure about those arches.

 

[cuppa tee]

I'll reply to whichever posts I like, thanks. And if people want to reply to my posts, like you have, that's fine.

quoting a post from March 26th ... anyhow what do you think of the building ?

 

[boohoo]

Gotta disagree with you Boohoo. Putting aside what is being lost, I quite like the design.

Just not sure about those arches.

It is slightly better than some of the others. But there is not a huge jump in its design to make a noticeable different to the block being built in Stockwell. It is hardly legacy making architecture.

 

[cuppa tee]

Just not sure about those arches.

those are the biggest visible feature, an attempt to echo the curve of the pub front windows providing a link back to the sites past like the tiles in the lobby possibly..... just wondering if that is a glass walled penthouse they have stuck on the top

 

[Rushy]

It is slightly better than some of the others. But there is not a huge jump in its design to make a noticeable different to the block being built in Stockwell. It is hardly legacy making architecture.

I think of the city more as a patchwork of not necessarily-legacy architecture. Loads of fantatsic urban setting have simple buildings. A lot of fantastic Victorian streets have almost featureless facades but because of the materials they age well. Using the London stock on that building is important as it ages so well.I like Albermarle too.

those are the biggest visible feature, an attempt to echo the curve of the pub front windows providing a link back to the sites past like the tiles in the lobby possibly..... just wondering if that is a glass walled penthouse they have stuck on the top

The scale of the arches is human - which is good. Might work well if the appropriate materials are used. Just not quite sure but reckon it could grow on me. I like the referencing, as you say.

 

[Onket]

quoting a post from March 26th ... anyhow what do you think of the building ?

This is the first time I've seen the post, so it's irrelevant when it's from.

Not a massive fan of the new building, thanks for asking.

 

[clandestino]

I think of the city more as a patchwork of not necessarily-legacy architecture. Loads of fantatsic urban setting have simple buildings. A lot of fantastic Victorian streets have almost featureless facades but because of the materials they age well. Using the London stock on that building is important as it ages so well.I like Albermarle too.

Am I right in thinking that you work in this sector Rushy? If so, how long would you say it would take to build a building of this sort? The piece says it's expected to be completed in April 2016, so working backwards where does that place closure of the pub and demolition?

 

[leanderman]

Is this the first we knew of this scheme?

 

[clandestino]

Is the first we knew of this scheme?

We knew about the building, but the details such as the arches are new.

Anyone here work in housing/building? Be great to get an answer to my question in post 177

 

[Rushy]

Am I right in thinking that you work in this sector Rushy? If so, how long would you say it would take to build a building of this sort? The piece says it's expected to be completed in April 2016, so working backwards where does that place closure of the pub and demolition?

Out of my league, I'm afraid!
At a guess 12-18 months?