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Proposal to ban private cars from public roads

teuchter

je suis teuchter
congestion-charge-cars.jpg



This proposal is based on the following premise:

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In the UK we have become too dependent on the private motor car as a means of transport. Almost everywhere in the country, outside of London and possibly with a few exceptions in the central parts of other cities, anyone who does not own or have access to a car is put at a significant disadvantage. In some places public transport is virtually non-existent; in some places it exists but journey times and frequencies are poor.

As well as putting non-car owners at a disadvantage, a car-dependent society has lots of other negative consequences - social, environmental, and health related. These issues have been discussed at length elsewhere so I'm not going to start listing them all here.

We need to find ways of reducing our dependence on the private car.

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If you disagree with that basic premise, then can I request that you don't argue about it on this thread as it would simply be rehashing old ground. Assuming you agree that reducing our dependence on the private car would be a good thing, then tell me what you think of my proposal as a way of achieving this:




A simplistic way to look at reducing car dependence is to simply say that we provide more and better public transport. This assumes that if public transport alternatives are provided, people will simply switch to them and stop using their cars. However, the reality is, that most people will only switch to public transport if it becomes significantly more convenient for them. This means that in most cases, achieving a significant change relies on either providing a very good public transport infrastructure and/or introducing meaningful penalties to discourage private car use. But such moves are expensive in the short term and are generally unpopular politically, which means that they are unlikely to be made.

Therefore I have been thinking about other ways of achieving such a shift.

An important point in all of this is the nature of the costs of using a car.

The cost of owning and running a car is quite high - many car owners underestimate the true cost but it is generally accepted to be something like at least £2300 per year. This includes the cost of purchasing as well as running costs. However, once you have committed to owning a car, the marginal cost of using it (ie. the extra cost per mile once you have paid all the fixed costs that you have to pay whether you actually use it or not) is quite cheap, and often a fair bit cheaper than public transport fares.

This is one of the reasons why it is hard to shift car drivers onto public transport. Once they have invested in car ownership it becomes economical for them to use the car instead of alternatives.

It's this fact which has lead to the relatively recent appearance of car sharing clubs like Streetcar. They are aimed at people who only want to use a car occasionally - not enough to justify the cost of actually owning one. These people generally live in places where public transport options are good enough that they can cater for the majority of their journeys - the most obvious example being London. These schemes seem to be growing, which indicates that they are viable, at least in denser urban areas.

My proposal is that these schemes are massively expanded to cover the whole of the country, and in effect become part of the public transport system. Obviously, in many areas this would need to be subsidised, at least initially. However, these are the same areas in which public transport is already subsidised, and it might be that a pragmatic view would be to cease, for example, very lightly loaded rural bus services, and divert the funding to subsidy for the car sharing scheme. The shared cars would be used by people to get them to the nearest "viable" public transport hub where they could continue their journey by bus or train.

So far, hopefully, those who fear rabid "anti-car" proposals will be with me as what I am really saying is that being realistic, we have to accept that cars are a necessary part of an effective transport network, and see them as augmenting other modes, rather than something to be eliminated from the system altogether.

The next bit they might not be so keen on but here goes.

One of the aims of this system would be to reduce the disadvantage that non-car owners currently experience: for those journeys (or journey segments) which simply aren't practical by public transport, they can use a car just like those who can afford to (or choose to) own one.

But the other aim is to deal with the current situation where car owners use their car to make journeys (or journey segments) which would be perfectly practical by public transport, simply because the marginal cost for them, having already invested in car ownership, is lower than the public transport fare. Making a car-sharing scheme available nationwide would not really change anything for them, unless the cost of a journey made by share-car plus PT became lower than their marginal cost for using their own car - and my guess is that that just wouldn't be achievable.

Of course, I could hope that over the longer term, lots of people would sell their car and use the car-share scheme instead. But, unless doing this would save them a substantial amount, my hunch is that they would just accept the extra cost of owning their private car in return for the benefits for them of doing so. You might say, so what, but then the scheme would not achieve its aim of reducing car use overall.

My proposal therefore is that private cars simply be banned from using the public roads, effectively making ownership of a car redundant other than purely as a hobby. Enough car-share cars would be made available that everyone could have access to one whenever they wanted. Use of the share-cars would be priced simply by the mile. Now we would have a situation where the choice between using a car or a train or a bus would not be distorted in cost terms by the fact that many users already own a car, as at present. This would help to make certain bus services, for example, viable financially. Some of them might in fact be the ones that had previously been withdrawn in order to divert subsidy to the initial stages of the car-share scheme.

It would also make it easier to introduce new public transport services without the "leap of faith" obstacle we have at present. By this I mean: at the moment, if you are going to introduce a new bus service (for example), it is a bit of a gamble as to whether it will take off. If you just run two services a day, no-one's going to use it - if you run it every 15 mins then people probably will use it but obviously you've got to have the confidence that they will before committing a large amount of investment to start running such a service from day one. In conjunction with a car-sharing scheme you could introduce new services more gently: for example, you could run a bus service in peak commuting hours, and people could use it during those times, and simply use a share-car if they stayed late at work or whatever (whereas at present, a bus service that runs at peak times only is no use to people who might often, but not always, want to come home during those hours).

I can't see that people who currently own a car should have any valid objections to what I am proposing. They would retain the same freedom of movement, because the system would ensure that a car was available to them when they wanted it. They could even use the car for journeys that could also be made by PT, if the were happy paying the premium. The aim would be to price the scheme such that the costs of travelling x number of miles per year would be less than it would cost them to do the same at present. I believe this would be feasible on the basis that the total number of cars in the country would be reduced because they would be being used more efficiently (ie. less time sitting idle in people's driveways or in car parks) and there could possibly also be efficiencies gained by buying those cars in bulk.

The system would encourage the development of decent public transport so they would have better public transport options than they do now, and everyone would enjoy the multitudinous benefits of having fewer cars on the roads generally. The only objections would be from those who see their car ownership as a kind of hobby and driving as a leisure activity, to which my response is, tough, the wider benefits to everyone would totally outweigh all that. Possibly we could throw in a few state-sponsored racetracks around the country for the petrolheads to go and play on at the weekends.



I will now sit back and wait for U75 pick my idea apart at the seams.
 
>My proposal therefore is that private cars simply be banned from using the public roads, effectively making ownership of a car redundant other than purely as a hobby.

Hobbies are activites or interests, whereby you normally *do* something. how is simply owning a car going to be a hobby? Should I just go and look at it occasionally, is that enough?
 
Hobbies are activites or interests, whereby you normally *do* something. how is simply owning a car going to be a hobby? Should I just go and look at it occasionally, is that enough?

I don't know - that's up to you, if you want to own a car for reasons other than getting you from A to B. Why are you asking me?
 
A better idea might be to ban the sale of cars and have them all leased. You get to put the running costs up front, in order to make PT more comparable, but you also let people have "their own" car, which I think is the primary psychological barrier you'd have to overcome.
 
Quite where u are going to store, fund and have easy access to all these millions of cars conveniently located everywhere is beyond me. additionally out in the sticks the "getting to a place where there is good public transport by car" part is a lot of the time the entire journey. Meaning everyone that drove that route still has to, but now have to take the risk a car is available at the time and place they want to be travelling from. Along with the sheer logistics of tracking, storing, maintaining etc etc the fleet. Bus companies make a giant fuck up of it all with a relatively tiny number of vehicles and there actually practiced at it.
 
Why are you asking me?

It's your proposal. I own cars to drive them, not to look at them :)

e2a - and now having got the bottom of your proposal, I see you will give me a state-sponsored racetrack, with no way of driving to it :)
 
A better idea might be to ban the sale of cars and have them all leased. You get to put the running costs up front, in order to make PT more comparable, but you also let people have "their own" car, which I think is the primary psychological barrier you'd have to overcome.

But they would still be making the commitment to "lease" their car for a year or whatever, so I don't see what it would really achieve. The fact that they'd already paid for that time period would still tend to encourage them use it rather than alternatives.
 
Fine, then you would be happy with my proposal.

No, as your propsal doesn;t allow me to drive my car.
Also, as an aside, would your car-share fleet include campervans so I can go on my annual holiday?
 
Quite where u are going to store, fund and have easy access to all these millions of cars conveniently located everywhere is beyond me. additionally out in the sticks the "getting to a place where there is good public transport by car" part is a lot of the time the entire journey. Meaning everyone that drove that route still has to, but now have to take the risk a car is available at the time and place they want to be travelling from. Along with the sheer logistics of tracking, storing, maintaining etc etc the fleet. Bus companies make a giant fuck up of it all with a relatively tiny number of vehicles and there actually practiced at it.

They would be pretty much stored where all the millions of cars are stored at the moment.

For people who live out in the sticks, they would pick the car up at the public transport hub, drive it back home, and back to a hub (or anywhere they fancied) the next time they went out. They would have to hire it overnight to guarantee it would still be available when they next wanted to go out, which would be more expensive than for people living in more densely populated areas where they could just leave it on the street and pick up another one the next day, but these are the people who currently are obliged (as a result of their isolated location) to own a car. Obviously I haven't looked at this in nearly enough detail to talk about specific costs but if it turned out that these people paid more under the proposed scheme than they do now, we could look at providing a subsidy in such circumstances, if we felt this would be justified.
 
No, as your propsal doesn;t allow me to drive my car.

It allows you to drive a car. If you want to keep your car that's fine, but you won't be able to use it to get from A to B. Why you would want to keep a car that you couldn't use to get from A - B, well that's for you to say. You might keep it at a racetrack and go and play with it on the weekends, or maybe you would just sit and look at it. I don't know.

Also, as an aside, would your car-share fleet include campervans so I can go on my annual holiday?

Yes, potentially. There would be a variety of vehicles available at different price points. Just like Streetcar now offers vans as well as cars.
 
Um, have you really thought about that?

I mean, they would start paying for the hire at that point. Arrive at station on train, pick up a car, drive home, sleep, drive car back to station next day, leave car, go to work, get back from work to station, pick up a car, drive home, etc etc.

In other words, exactly as many people do now, but the car would be available for use by others during the day instead of sitting idle in the station car park.
 
Its not the car that is the problem but the reason why need them. Zonal planning.

Some idiot in america decided life you be better if we had a ll the residences over here ----->
All the offices over here <--------------------
Industry Somewhere else and retail somewhere else.

The result?

To use your home, shops, workplace and office services you have to travel all over the place.

Instead if you adopt an intergrated community model you can do it all easily by foot on on push bike. Domestic automotive usage would plumment.
 
Its not the car that is the problem but the reason why need them. Zonal planning.

Some idiot in america decided life you be better if we had a ll the residences over here ----->
All the offices over here <--------------------
Industry Somewhere else and retail somewhere else.

The result?

To use your home, shops, workplace and office services you have to travel all over the place.

Instead if you adopt an intergrated community model you can do it all easily by foot on on push bike. Domestic automotive usage would plumment.

This is all absolutely correct (except that it's not a one-way process: that kind of planning is a result of cars being widely used, as well as cars being widely used being a result of that kind of planning. As discussed ad nauseum in other threads).

But, given that this is the situation we currently find ourselves in, how do you suggest we change it?
 
I mean, they would start paying for the hire at that point. Arrive at station on train, pick up a car, drive home, sleep, drive car back to station next day, leave car, go to work, get back from work to station, pick up a car, drive home, etc etc.

In other words, exactly as many people do now, but the car would be available for use by others during the day instead of sitting idle in the station car park.

Then you come home from work and discover that a bunch of tourists have taken the station carpark cars and you're stuck in the rain with no way of getting home. For example.
 
But, given that this is the situation we currently find ourselves in, how do you suggest we change it?

Increase the marginal cost of using a car (fuel tax and road pricing), and use that money to subsidise and invest in PT.
 
It allows you to drive a car. If you want to keep your car that's fine
I do, it's cheaper for me to keep my car than hire yours :)

Question: What do you plan on doing with the millions of cars that you are advocating car owners will be banned form using. Scrapping them all?
 
I do, it's cheaper for me to keep my car than hire yours :)

Question: What do you plan on doing with the millions of cars that you are advocating car owners will be banned form using. Scrapping them all?

I think he's saying that all cars would be bought by the state, then hired back to people at an hourly rate.
 
Then you come home from work and discover that a bunch of tourists have taken the station carpark cars and you're stuck in the rain with no way of getting home. For example.

This is part of the reason for the system working best if it's universal. If you have enough cars in the system things will average out so that such a situation would be very unusual. In reality, it wouldn't just be in the station car park; there would be cars parked in lots of streets nearby too. There could be a couple of hundred cars within ten minutes' walk.

In the rare instances of situations like the one you describe, you could build something into the system that would allow you to get a taxi for free.
 
Increase the marginal cost of using a car (fuel tax and road pricing), and use that money to subsidise and invest in PT.

Sadly, experience suggests that this just isn't going to be politically acceptable though, at least, if implemented in the extent to create a real change.
 
Increase the marginal cost of using a car (fuel tax and road pricing), and use that money to subsidise and invest in PT.

alternatively actually use the revenue already generated to go into only public transport... as at present it mainly goes into the treasury to be used to subsidise other things...
 
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