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Probationary period extension, sickness and lateness?

AnnO'Neemus

Is so vanilla
I started a part-time job last November. (I couldn't accept a full-time position, because I had a weekly therapy appointment for PTSD that clashed with the full-time shift pattern.) It turned out there was a six month probationary period. (Every other job I've had in recent years has had a three month probationary period. I think years ago, your job was permanent from the off, but anyway...)

Sickness

Unfortunately, from around early February, I had around six weeks off work, with gynae/gastro problems, which had been grumbling along with low level pain for a couple of years, for which I took OTC painkillers, and my GP had made non-urgent referrals that had fallen through the net during the pandemic. But early this year I developed acute pain and in the space of about a month when to A&E three times and each time they basically told me to fuck off back to my GP, because it was something I had already raised with them. I found that baffling, because surely the symptoms becoming more severe, acutely painful, should mean investigations are now urgent?

Anyway, chasing up colonoscopy that had been cancelled during pandemic and not rescheduled, and also chasing up another ultrasound (they previously did one that found gallstones, but said that my lower abdomen was 'too gassy' to see properly, but then another one hadn't been rescheduled, because pandemic. I managed to get them done while I was off sick.

Ultrasound found fibroids. I've previously had surgery, about 15 years ago, to remove some. I've - finally - got an appointment with a specialist next month, to see if I need surgery again or whether they can just be shrunk with hormones.

Colonoscopy showed diverticulitis and also polyps (the latter removed and sent to the lab, and they lost the result, should have taken 2-3 weeks, but it ended up taking around three months to confirm the polyp wasn't cancerous, so that was a bit of a fraught time). I'm wondering whether a lot of the acute pain was maybe something stuck in the diverticulitis pockets? I'd been on a health kick, eating bread with seeds, eating nuts and seeds. I'm wondering whether taking the litres of laxative stuff to prepare for the colonoscopy flushed stuff out of my system and reduced the pain? Because I've not had an acute attack of pain since then, although still grumbling along.

I then developed Covid-19-like symptoms, which I thought I might have caught at the clinic during the colonoscopy, because the sedation and pain relief didn't work and it was excruciating and the nurse came and sat right next to me and held my hand. I offered to work from home, but was told I couldn't and to take more sick days (ended up taking two more sick days at their insistence, because of the way shift pattern worked out, and because of negative tests). I had previously worked from home for a few days (internet/phone problems with the system at work) and have subsequently worked from home (power outage in the building/local neighbourhood), but manager doesn't like me hot-spotting off mobile, even though it's just like connecting to a WiFi router. * shrugs *

Then back to work. I've been taking Solpadeine (codeine-based OTC painkiller) most days for months, even though you're only supposed to take it for three days.

I found out they don't pay full pay for sick leave, only SSP. They ended up giving me a company loan so I could pay my rent, which I paid back over the next two months.

Lateness

Had been 15 minutes late, twice. Once because the evening before I'd sent a message saying I'd just got a prescription for sleeping tablets from my doctor, so I might be a bit late the next morning. I woke up late, groggy, but was only 15 minutes late. (I'd been going through some stressful housing stuff that triggered my PTSD and was having a bout of insomnia on top, hence needing the sleeping tablets, as I felt like shit.) Another time I was 15 minutes late because, I think I'd mislaid my keys. I usually hang them on a hook as soon as I get in, but if I'm bursting for the loo as I'm running in through the door, I sometimes, dump bag/keys somewhere else and they get mislaid. I couldn't leave to go to work, because it's the kind of door that you have to physically lock, it's not a Yale lock that self-closes. Frantically hunted them down, was only 15 minutes late. NB: I've always made up the time.

My probationary period was extended by a further three months, which I agreed was fair enough.

In the last two and a half months:

Sickness

Had one day sick a couple of weeks ago due to getting an ear infection (had phone appointment with GP and got prescription for antibiotic/anti-inflammatory spray), only one day off due to shift pattern, had been using the spray a couple of days and symptoms had eased a bit (bit still struggled a bit with hearing).

Lateness

I was five minutes late one day last week. I phoned while en route. I'd mislaid my glasses while going from bedroom to bathroom to kitchen to sitting room while getting ready. I can't use computers without them, so I had to stay and find them, which made me five minutes late. Line manager said she'd have to log my lateness. I said I'd make up the time, of course, but line manager said not necessary. I had a shorter lunch break and made up the time anyway. I'm getting the kind of feeling that they're the kind of company that says 'Not a problem' and 'Not necessary' but then holds it against you.

Targets

The job doesn't involve sales, but we do have to meet targets. Sometimes I meet my weekly/month targets, sometimes I don't, but we've had a lot of new starters over the past couple of months, so it seems like the number of 'successes' are being spread between more and more people. And as a whole, we didn't meet the department's target for the past two months, so not just me, I'm not an outlier in terms of performing badly.

We've been under pressure to do lots of overtime in recent months, because the company's expanding, and they've taken on increased targets from existing clients and also new clients, and there's been a bit of a mismatch, in that they're recruiting, but it takes time to train people and get them up to speed, so there's a bit of a lag between increased workload and getting more staff onboard and up to speed to deal with that increased workload.

I've personally felt under a lot of pressure, (a) to make up for the unexpected shortfall/hole in my bank balance/pay off credit card debt run up while I was off sick for nearly two months and also (b) to prove I'm a 'team player' trying to help meet my personal, team and also company-wide targets, and also (b) to try to avoid being sacked at the end of my probationary period, in just over two weeks' time.

What's the likelihood of me being 'let go' after having one more sick day and being late five minutes in the past three months? (On top of my previous sickness/lateness.)

What's considered 'normal' amounts of sickness and lateness?


I've been struggling, in all honesty, with the pressure and the anxiety, feeling a constant sense of unease and fear at the prospect of losing my job and not being able to pay my rent. Plus, all the work, all the hours of overtime have taken a toll too. I'm only supposed to be part-time, but have been working full-time or more than full-time hours. I suppose some folk might think, Well, that's not so bad, full-time hours isn't being overworked. But I'm on the autistic spectrum and it's working in a high-pressured, target-driven call centre. I've worked in sort of call centre environments before, albeit not target-driven or so high pressured in that sense, albeit in that job a new project coming online doubled our workload, so it was hard work, and in one job I did fairly quiet night shifts.

The jobs I previously had in much more different, less-pressured call centre environments, it took me and the other new starters about three months before we stopped feeling permanently knackered. This type of call centre role is dealing with more fraught people though, and I think that and all the added pressure over money and targets means I'm finding it exhausting.

Because I'm on the autistic spectrum, 'people-ing' really takes it out of me. To spend eight hours full-on people-ing in such a high-pressured, target-driven environment, often talking to people about emotionally fraught situations, having to empathise with them - and I do empathise, many people think that us folk on the spectrum don't/can't, but that's wrong, I feel a very heightened sense of social justice, and really feel for people, perhaps too keenly, so it really takes it out of me. It really uses a lot of 'spoons' (see disability spoon theory) for me to do so much people-ing and masking and I'm fucking shattered. And yet in fear of losing the job that's knackering me.

The uncertainty about the probationary period being extended and not knowing where I stand is getting to me, adding to my anxiety and emotional and physical exhaustion. (And someone else is being disciplined, might be being sacked for something, they're currently suspended, so that's adding to my fears about being let go too.)

Any reassurance or feedback along the lines of 'I'm my experience, you're fucked, start looking for another job now' would be welcome.
 
Probationary periods these days are a bit of a misnomer, you don't acquire any legal employment rights until two years service and you can pretty much be sacked on a whim unless it's covered by discrimination legislation. Not so much my generation but it is quite frankly astonishing how many of my son's mates have lost their jobs after 1 year and 11 months for outwardly trivial reasons. So even if they tell you your probationary period is over they can get rid of you fairly easily up until December 2023.
Based on my own experiences (and I know nothing about your employer) companies tend to look more favourably on fewer longer periods of sicknesses than they do on more shorter ones. Someone who has had one period of five or six weeks off has probably been genuinely ill whereas someone who calls in sick every other Monday is likely lead swinging. HR Depts aren't stupid they do know these things.
As someone who has supervised junior staff in the past my attitude to someone who is 15 mins late once in a while would be to tell them to make it up in the evening, try not to do it again and then forget about it unless I thought they were taking the piss (in my experience few actually do and the ones that are soon out themselves).
But it entirely depends on your supervisor he/she can be as difficult or as forgiving as they want over it. You are supposed to be there on time and you depend on them not being jerks about it.
How do you feel your relationship with your supervisor is?
TBH if your employment is making you feel stressed and ill about it then fuck it start looking for another job now.
 
I'm sorry AnnO'Neemus, I'm not up to speed with the current legislation but after having read that my first thought was to ask if this is something you could raise with your line manager ? Could you say you're concerned about the sick leave you've had to take (through no fault of your own) and the impression this is giving ? This may open communications such that you can ask for an unofficial appraisal of how you're performing (again, if you're able to do so). My goal when working was to get close enough to my manager to always be able to ask this kind of question and I would often start out working for someone by requesting monthly feedback, but again. not everyone is able to do this.

If you're able to, joining a union wouldn't do you any harm and I would heartily recommend that everyone that can. does.
 
My professional experience is that companies which don’t give some full sick pay are the sort of companies you don’t want to work for anyway.

Is it owner-run? My direct experience of working for companies where the owner is directly involved is that the management philosophy cascaded down to first line managers is “sick pay = stealing from the boss”
 
My professional experience is that companies which don’t give some full sick pay are the sort of companies you don’t want to work for anyway.

Is it owner-run? My direct experience of working for companies where the owner is directly involved is that the management philosophy cascaded down to first line managers is “sick pay = stealing from the boss”
It's shit. Some companies use the Bradford Score Bradford factor calculator | How to calculate the Bradford score | Breathe Which is the Number of absences Squared multiplied by the number of days off.

So it's shit if you have migraines or are a person who has regular unwell periods. Let me think, which members of the population can have, say, a time each month when they can feel really ill.
Who statistically has more Migraines?

So fuck Bradford University School of Management and its sexism.
 
It's shit. Some companies use the Bradford Score Bradford factor calculator | How to calculate the Bradford score | Breathe Which is the Number of absences Squared multiplied by the number of days off.

So it's shit if you have migraines or are a person who has regular unwell periods. Let me think, which members of the population can have, say, a time each month when they can feel really ill.
Who statistically has more Migraines?

So fuck Bradford University School of Management and its sexism.
I'm fucked then. I've had three periods of absence in six months.

And I've just this second realised I might've shot myself in the foot by mentioning a hospital appointment to them. I told them that I have an appointment coming up with the gynaecologist to see whether or not I need surgery or hormone treatment for fibroids, as I've had surgery before.

I wanted to tell them as I felt the urge to emphasise that I actually have a painful medical condition and so wasn't taking the piss or slacking by being off sick previously.

(The company publicly praised someone in internal comms recently, for never taking time off sick in three years, despite them being a bit ill in that time, so I'm feeling like there's pressure to carry on working when sick/in pain. So they sort of frown on people taking sick leave and only pay SSP, and praise people for working while ill and in pain.)

Now having mentioned to them that I might need surgery, I'm thinking that they might want to get rid of me while the opportunity presents itself? I would probably need 4-6 weeks off, if I do end up needing surgery.

And, yes, what is that fucked up, sexist Bradford Score shit?!!?! Horrifying. You're a woman. You have gynae symptoms. You have some time off sick. Company asks a sexist algorithm 'Is this employee a liability? Should we keep this person on staff?' Computer says no.
 
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I'm fucked then. I've had three periods of absence in six months.

And I've just this second realised I might've shot myself in the foot by mentioning a hospital appointment to them. I told them that I have an appointment coming up with the gynaecologist to see whether or not I need surgery or hormone treatment for fibroids, as I've had surgery before.

I wanted to tell them as I felt the urge to emphasise that I actually have a painful medical condition and so wasn't taking the piss or slacking by being off sick previously.

(The company publicly praised someone in internal comms recently, for never taking time off sick in three years, despite them being a bit ill in that time, so I'm feeling like there's pressure to carry on working when sick/in pain. So they sort of frown on people taking sick leave and only pay SSP, and praise people for working while ill and in pain.)

Now having mentioned to them that I might need surgery, I'm thinking that they might want to get rid of me while the opportunity presents itself? I would probably need 4-6 weeks off, if I do end up needing surgery.

And, yes, what is that fucked up, sexist shit!?!?! Horrifying. You're a woman. You have gynae symptoms. You have some time off sick. Company asks a sexist algorithm 'Is this employee a liability? Should we keep this person on staff?' Computer says no.
The company you're working for may not be using that, and HR should discuss it with you and make accommodations where needed, but if HR are looking just at the numbers it's really unfair and discriminatory.
 
It's private sector, there's no workplace union so joining not really an option.

You can join a union even if there is no union recognition/bargaining in your workplace, this will give you access to stuff like having an experienced rep available if you need someone to attend meetings with you, legal advice about contracts, dismissal and disciplinary matters in your workplace etc.

Just join an appropriate one for the sector or the type of work you do.
 
MickiQ Thanks for reminding me about the two years thing, I'd forgotten about that. So even if I jump this hurdle, my employment still isn't secure anyway. :(

It's really stressful, not knowing from one month to the next whether or not I'm going to have a job and if I'm going to be able to pay my rent or not.

I moved and started paying rent in April 2021, depleted my savings, decorating, furnishing paying rent. By October I was putting my rent on my credit card, and luckily got the job in November. Just about dug myself out of the small credit card hole when I became ill and got into another one, due to nearly two months on SSP. Am hopefully going to get out of that hole this month or next month, depending on how much overtime I've earned.

So after working for eight months since mid-November last year, by the time I have my probationary review next month, I might just about be back to square one of no credit card debt. (But also no savings whatsoever, they were all wiped out before I got the job. So since last April, I've taken about three steps back, financially, and one step forward.

I'm worried I might lose my job without any savings to fall back on this time. I was out of work for about 14 months after a 12 month contract in the VCSE sector ended in September 2020.

I live alone. No partner to help out with bills. I'm a care leaver, so no family to help me out either. I have a couple of really good friends who've lent me money over the years, when I've been stuck, which is a blessing.

I'm feeling increasingly terrified by lack of financial stability amid the cost of living crisis and escalating bills.
 
It's private sector, there's no workplace union so joining not really an option.
you can still join a union and get legal and other advice, even if the employer doesn't formally recognise a union. I would urge you to do so.

Try this website and see if it points you to a union you could join. TUC Union Finder: Find Your Union >>

But do it before you are at risk - no union will give you legal advice if you join with a pre-existing problem. Right now, you do not have a pre-existing problem, and there is no need to tell a union of your worries whilst joining, as your employer has not indicated that you are at risk.

ETA the link, because I missed it out
 
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My professional experience is that companies which don’t give some full sick pay are the sort of companies you don’t want to work for anyway.

Is it owner-run? My direct experience of working for companies where the owner is directly involved is that the management philosophy cascaded down to first line managers is “sick pay = stealing from the boss”
Yes, owner run. It's been going about 10 years, although the company pivoted maybe 3-4 years ago into an expanding sector and is now growing rapidly, is scheduled to treble in size over the next year or so. Not so much a sick pay = stealing from the boss type scenario, but more a start-up-y type vibe and 'the company can't afford to pay full pay for sick leave yet' situation. Boss seems like a nice guy so far, from my little interaction with him, very hard working himself, trying to grow a business that he started up himself and sacrificed a lot for, personally, in the early days, to get it off the ground.

They've only just grown to the point of hiring an HR manager 2-3 months ago, previously it was line manager/department head who did recruitment and dealt with HR-type issues, not HR specialists.
 
you can still join a union and get legal and other advice, even if the employer doesn't formally recognise a union. I would urge you to do so.

Try this website and see if it points you to a union you could join.
But do it before you are at risk - no union will give you legal advice if you join with a pre-existing problem. Right now, you do not have a pre-existing problem, and there is no need to tell a union of your worries whilst joining, as your employer has not indicated that you are at risk.
Will my employer know I've joined a union?
 
It's shit. Some companies use the Bradford Score Bradford factor calculator | How to calculate the Bradford score | Breathe Which is the Number of absences Squared multiplied by the number of days off.

So it's shit if you have migraines or are a person who has regular unwell periods. Let me think, which members of the population can have, say, a time each month when they can feel really ill.
Who statistically has more Migraines?

So fuck Bradford University School of Management and its sexism.
Bradford factor shouldn't be used for chronic or recurring conditions because it's just not designed to be.

AnnO'Neemus have you declared any medical condition that could be expected to last for more than 12 months and has a significant impact on your daily life? If not do it now, anything that could be related to your gynae/gastro issues gets included such as migraines.

Declare verbally then follow up in email. Loop HR in too, or talk to them if you don't want to talk to your manager.

If you do this you should hopefully be protected under the Equality Act 2010. It's not a magic bullet but it should help.

And you don't need to go into the massive amounts of detail like you do here, just say 'i have long-term gastro/gynae issues including fibroids and migraines frequently. This means I have severe episodes of pain for which I manage through medication, however recently I have needed additional time off for medical appointments and tests, including checks for cancer. I am doing my best to minimise the impact on my working life but of course sometimes that's not always possible as I am sure you appreciate'
 
It's private sector, there's no workplace union so joining not really an option.
There might not be recognition of a union for collective bargaining purposes but there are still situations where you would be entitled to be accompanied by a union rep.
Whether a probation review meeting would be one of those occasions probably depends on the policy of the employer. but I'd echo the advice of others joins a union ASAP (from what you've said I suspect the dues would not be high at all).
 
No doubt the point of declaring a long term illness is that on the strength of that you could ask for reasonable adjustments to your job perhaps some form of flexible working.But I wonder how many employers in practice are going to get into that kind of negotiation whilst an employee is still serving our a probationary period?Not at all suggesting it isn't the way to go obviously advice from a union would be the way to go .Being no stranger myself to health problems that might be described as chronic I could never quite convince myself that it was best to be frank about it with my employer.Can't say that keeping quiet has done me any good in the long run of course.
 
Will my employer know I've joined a union?
Not if you pay them by direct debit direct from your bank account. Do it via payroll and there's a chance they'll find out.

And it's annoying to see over and over that private workplaces don't allow unions - they do! They may not recognise a union for collective bargaining purposes but that can be overcome, it's not insurmountable a barrier.
 
No doubt the point of declaring a long term illness is that on the strength of that you could ask for reasonable adjustments to your job perhaps some form of flexible working.But I wonder how many employers in practice are going to get into that kind of negotiation whilst an employee is still serving our a probationary period?Not at all suggesting it isn't the way to go obviously advice from a union would be the way to go .Being no stranger myself to health problems that might be described as chronic I could never quite convince myself that it was best to be frank about it with my employer.Can't say that keeping quiet has done me any good in the long run of course.
I've always declared my health conditions on day 1 or any pre employment questionnaire from OH. Had I not I would have been fired from at least 1 if not two positions, one because a manager decided I was lying about the extent of my unwellness.

Don't give me wrong, you have to weigh things up for your situation. But there can be no claim of disability discrimination if the employer is unaware of said disability.
 
Not if you pay them by direct debit direct from your bank account. Do it via payroll and there's a chance they'll find out.

i'm not sure that many employers do 'check off' (payment via payroll) for union subs now - the last two places i've worked where the union is recognised, when i've joined, i've been asked to set up a direct debit

back 20 years or so ago when i was a union rep, the (major) government brought in some bullshit where union members had to re-confirm they wanted to do check-off every year or something like that, in the hope that members wouldn't bother. i doubt that the blair government got rid of that bit of law...

And it's annoying to see over and over that private workplaces don't allow unions - they do! They may not recognise a union for collective bargaining purposes but that can be overcome, it's not insurmountable a barrier.

indeed. with a very few exceptions (armed services, police and maybe still GCHQ and the like) all workers are entitled to join any union, whether or not there's union recognition and whether or not the union you join is the recognised one. obviously i'd recommend to join a recognised union if there is one.
 
i'm not sure that many employers do 'check off' (payment via payroll) for union subs now - the last two places i've worked where the union is recognised, when i've joined, i've been asked to set up a direct debit

back 20 years or so ago when i was a union rep, the (major) government brought in some bullshit where union members had to re-confirm they wanted to do check-off every year or something like that, in the hope that members wouldn't bother. i doubt that the blair government got rid of that bit of law...



indeed. with a very few exceptions (armed services, police and maybe still GCHQ and the like) all workers are entitled to join any union, whether or not there's union recognition and whether or not the union you join is the recognised one. obviously i'd recommend to join a recognised union if there is one.

GCHQ workers used to be in CPSA (unsurprisingly they were one of the most right-wing divisions within the union, along with prison officers), so it's not the case that they weren't allowed to join a union.
 
Yes do it by direct debit - no need to broadcast it to the company by taking deduction via payroll

and i also presume that employers don't have to co-operate with this sort of thing unless there is a recognition agreement in place, anyway?
 
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I've always declared my health conditions on day 1 or any pre employment questionnaire from OH. Had I not I would have been fired from at least 1 if not two positions, one because a manager decided I was lying about the extent of my unwellness.

Don't give me wrong, you have to weigh things up for your situation. But there can be no claim of disability discrimination if the employer is unaware of said disability.
Don't recall ever being asked about any chronic health conditions I might have on taking up a new post but I have no doubt that goes on .As I mentioned on the other thread,not meaning to derail this one,I was a bit surprised to see a local agency including "good health" as a job requirement for distribution centre workers.
 
Don't recall ever being asked about any chronic health conditions I might have on taking up a new post but I have no doubt that goes on .As I mentioned on the other thread,not meaning to derail this one,I was a bit surprised to see a local agency including "good health" as a job requirement for distribution centre workers.
I would say a) that's too vague to be meaningful and b) potentially discriminatory.
 
Not if you pay them by direct debit direct from your bank account. Do it via payroll and there's a chance they'll find out.

And it's annoying to see over and over that private workplaces don't allow unions - they do! They may not recognise a union for collective bargaining purposes but that can be overcome, it's not insurmountable a barrier.
good point, although you can only do it via payroll if there is an arrangement between the union and the employer, which there isn't in this case.
 
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