Holiday vs. Sick Leave

[Orang Utan]

I know why, doesn't make it less disgraceful.

why?

 

[emanymton]

why?

Exactly what you said, they think some people are taking the piss and are not really sick and lump everyone together.

 

[equationgirl]

That is outrageous and intimidatory, but I don't believe it would actually be enforceable.

Employers can dismiss people on the grounds of ill health but it needs to be done in a reasonable manner. It is normal for employer to put in place attendance targets but a blanket 'you cannot be ill again' is something else.
I can't imagine an ET looking very favourably on the argument 'we OU agreed not to take any more sick leave and now he has cancer so we're firing him'.

Many years ago I was off work for eight months and got hauled in for various meetings with HR because my line manager was being a bitched. She asked Occupational Health to verify that I would never be off sick again which even HR was visibly annoyed at. OH wrote a withering response along the lines of 'EG has a wellmanaged long term health condition, her recent absence was out with her control, she could be seriously ill again or be completely fine, we don't know when if ever she will off sick again' and my line manager theatrically threw the report across the table with a dramatic 'i don't what this means' when it was clear to everyone else.

 

[equationgirl]

I think it’s because they lump people who are genuinely sick with people they suspect of pulling too many sickies, thus having the intimidatory effect of making people with chronic illnesses or conditions feel like they’re under suspicion.

Especially with the bar for sickness absence management set stupidly low

 

[Orang Utan]

I think that next time it happens, I will take my line managers to task with going along with it, as they’ve previously intimated to me that they also think it’s unfair and a far from perfect system. Trouble is, I’m more militant than my union rep, and they wouldn’t do that.
I want to directly ask them if they suspect me of pulling sickies. I have more time off with stress, cos of ADHD-related anxiety, but I also take more time off when I have a cold as I don’t want to give it to my colleagues and customers, many of whom are vulnerable or elderly. In a previous job, which I had for a decade, I’d get admonished if I came in with a cold or a cough, and that’s become ingrained in me, but in the public sector it seems you’re expected to soldier on and infect everyone else.

 

[pogofish]

There is a regulation somewhere about refunds of holiday if you end up being off sick during the time you've booked off, so they might be trying to do you a favour a_chap but not explaining it very well.

Yes, I've had this. I took ill towards the end of a holiday, cut it short and the doc signed me off for three weeks.

Come the start of the next holiday year, I found I had a lot of unexpected extra days to take because instead of the four days from when I took ill, HR had credited my entire (IIRC) three weeks of holiday back to me. Which really messed-up my holidays/pissed-off my bosses for the next few years until they changed things to only allow a few days carry-over and lose the rest.

 

[InArduisFouette]

Isn't counting it as sick better than losing holiday? Or am i missing something?

single episode of sickness - so doesn't trigger multiple episode criteria , and may contribute to the absence being managed under the longer term sickness policy if one is in place and the holiday credited back , however it's likely the first 3 days even in a company sick pay scheme will be unpaid

 

[InArduisFouette]

Holiday is paid though.

and in many organisations there is some form of company / occupational sick pay scheme ... Op doesn't mention one way or the other

 

[InArduisFouette]

Even if you are entitled to sick pay at full rate, the amount generally depends on your length of service.

Typically, you don't get any until you've been there two years, and then it goes up maybe a month each year you're there.

And even then, there's usually a maximum of six months at full pay, after which you go to half pay for another six and nothing at all after 12 months.

you appear to be quoting your organisation's scheme as though it is the norm

the NHS has different arrangments to that as illustrated ithe relevant section (14 iirc) of the AfC terms and conditions handbook

https://www.nhsemployers.org/publications/tchandbook

 

[InArduisFouette]

I would expect anything covered by a sick not would be excluded and it would only be self certified sick days coverd?

Still shit as who gets a sick note for a few days off with flu. And 2 bouts in a year and you are over 5 days.

less than 7 days absence you'll be doing a self cert ...

 

[Numbers]

Depends on years of service and how much of an arse the company is, in my experience.

20 years service usually equates to six months or more of fully paid leave on many cases.

Where I am it’s 6 months full pay after which it’s evaluated. HR/OH are very good too, they really offer all the support one may need, I can’t actually fault them, or management. I know and appreciate that’s a rarity.

When my Mum and Dad died last year within 5 weeks of one another I had loads of time off and didn’t even have to provide a fitness note, I had one but was never asked for it.

 

[Duncan2]

I thought this was done to comply with WTD.Cos it is a health and safety requirement that workers take a minimum of twenty eight days per annum or pro rata equivalent if part time.If you are at home ravaged by illness then you are not getting the annual rest that the regulations say you should get even if you are yourself comfortable with it.Employers covering their arse I think rather than bad practice

 

[thismoment]

My employer asks anyone who gets to Stage 1 Attendance Management (more than 5 days in a year, which is ridiculously low) to sign such a document. Most do, even though it would be dishonest to sign such a thing. We don’t have crystal balls so cannot foresee our illnesses and accidents

My work does this too. I’ve felt awful for people in such circumstances at work because it ends up punishing legitimate illness

 

[thismoment]

I think that next time it happens, I will take my line managers to task with going along with it, as they’ve previously intimated to me that they also think it’s unfair and a far from perfect system. Trouble is, I’m more militant than my union rep, and they wouldn’t do that.
I want to directly ask them if they suspect me of pulling sickies. I have more time off with stress, cos of ADHD-related anxiety, but I also take more time off when I have a cold as I don’t want to give it to my colleagues and customers, many of whom are vulnerable or elderly. In a previous job, which I had for a decade, I’d get admonished if I came in with a cold or a cough, and that’s become ingrained in me, but in the public sector it seems you’re expected to soldier on and infect everyone else.

Yes, i find this frustrating in schools, I find this odd as you spread your illness to the children who then attendance concern letters for being off sick too often… i think it’s because they are so short staffed they don’t care

 

[Orang Utan]

Yes, i find this frustrating in schools, I find this odd as you spread your illness to the children who then attendance concern letters for being off sick too often… i think it’s because they are so short staffed they don’t care

When I worked in schools, no one dared take any time off as it fucked up everyone else’s schedules and workloads and you’d invariably have a mess to sort out when you got back. It was almost seen as badge of honour to solder on

 

[Sue]

It's likely the first 3 days even in a company sick pay scheme will be unpaid

I've never come across that. Always been full pay from the first day off sick.

 

[Elpenor]

3 Unpaid lead in days are increasingly common in some industries, retail for example.

 

[Orang Utan]

I've never come across that. Always been full pay from the first day off sick.

Aye, me too.
Have never had any wages deducted for sickness, even in retail. Things are changing for the worse, it seems.

 

[Elpenor]

Thinking back to when I worked at a bureau so did sick pay for lots of retail customers (big chains you’d have heard of) it tended to be newer companies, not so much the older legacy companies.

 

[equationgirl]

Where I am it’s 6 months full pay after which it’s evaluated. HR/OH are very good too, they really offer all the support one may need, I can’t actually fault them, or management. I know and appreciate that’s a rarity.

When my Mum and Dad died last year within 5 weeks of one another I had loads of time off and didn’t even have to provide a fitness note, I had one but was never asked for it.

Bereavement tends to be handled differently, I was once told I could only have one day of bereavement leave when my nan died, despite someone else having longer for their grandparent dying, so I checked the handbook and quoted it back at them - it said up to five days if travel was involved, which it was. It's several years ago now but they did agree, and I had a spare few days so added those in too to make sure I was out for more than a week.

As an aside my GP, later that year, said I was suffering from stress and burnout, when I told my manager (he who had begrudged me bereavement leave) said...

...'don't be stressed '

Rage

 

[Elpenor]

I worked with a Director of People in the noughties who used the phrase - with no irony as far as I could tell - : “of course when I started work back in the 70s we didn’t have people off with stress and depression”.

 

[StoneRoad]

I worked with a Director of People in the noughties who used the phrase - with no irony as far as I could tell - : “of course when I started work back in the 70s we didn’t have people off with stress and depression”.

no, because people self-medicated with alcohol ... and all the problems that entailed subsequently.
Although, "back problems" were quite common, as I recall.

 

[cesare]

single episode of sickness - so doesn't trigger multiple episode criteria , and may contribute to the absence being managed under the longer term sickness policy if one is in place and the holiday credited back , however it's likely the first 3 days even in a company sick pay scheme will be unpaid

Yes, SSP provisions, first 3 days unpaid before SSP kicks in. In small businesses they often default to SSP minimums and even where they have top up sick pay often it doesn't kick in until the first 3 days are over although some have a discretionary element to cover those.

 

[Numbers]

Bereavement tends to be handled differently, I was once told I could only have one day of bereavement leave when my nan died, despite someone else having longer for their grandparent dying, so I checked the handbook and quoted it back at them - it said up to five days if travel was involved, which it was. It's several years ago now but they did agree, and I had a spare few days so added those in too to make sure I was out for more than a week.

As an aside my GP, later that year, said I was suffering from stress and burnout, when I told my manager (he who had begrudged me bereavement leave) said...

...'don't be stressed '

Rage

For sure, we get a week for bereavement of a parent. I had about 8 weeks in total.

And Rage for sure.

 

[Duncan2]

For sure, we get a week for bereavement of a parent. I had about 8 weeks in total.

And Rage for sure.

Pretty cynical it seems to me- not paying the first three days of sickness.Must eliminate a huge chunk of sick pay that would otherwise be due.

 

[StoneRoad]

Pretty cynical it seems to me- not paying the first three days of sickness.Must eliminate a huge chunk of sick pay that would otherwise be due.

It also encourages people to come in when they are sick, with things that shouldn't be spread around the workplace.
Like Flu, Covid or D&V [noroviruses].

 

[StoneRoad]

Oh, and (small) employers used to be allowed to offset SSP against taxes due.

 

[emanymton]

Pretty cynical it seems to me- not paying the first three days of sickness.Must eliminate a huge chunk of sick pay that would otherwise be due.

True, but on the other hand it could also encourage people to take a few extra days once they start getting paid for it.

 

[emanymton]

I once worked someone that outsourced its sickness recording to an external company than run a phone line staffed by trained nurses (they claimed). Thing is of course sickness went up as the people staffing the line were generally quite pleasant and helpful and it is much easier to speak to a stranger rather than you own line manager.

I have no idea how they ever thought it would reduce sickness.