Poland

[RD2003]

40 plus years on from the Gdansk shipyard strikes and occupations, and the choice is between Catholic social conservatism/authoritarianism and happy-clappy neo-liberalism. A demo of half a million waving national and EU flags is like a sick joke vision of an anti-conservative protest, the photos like half-remembered images from a nightmare, or the wet dream of the average western EU fetishist. Even Walesa is there, apparently protesting against more or less everything he used to stand for.

The Russia links stuff seems like a storm in a teacup when you consider that Tusk, the only serious challenger, is part of the EU establishment.

'PiS has won popularity for policies that have led to increased social spending.' They wouldn't get that under Tusk.

Poland: hundreds of thousands march against rightwing populist government

‘We’re half a million here,’ says Donald Tusk at what he says is biggest political gathering since Poland regained independence

www.theguardian.com

 

[tim]

40 plus years on from the Gdansk shipyard strikes and occupations, and the choice is between Catholic social conservatism/authoritarianism and happy-clappy neo-liberalism. A demo of half a million waving national and EU flags is like a sick joke vision of an anti-conservative protest, the photos like half-remembered images from a nightmare, or the wet dream of the average western EU fetishist. Even Walesa is there, apparently protesting against more or less everything he used to stand for.

The Russia links stuff seems like a storm in a teacup when you consider that Tusk, the only serious challenger, is part of the EU establishment.

'PiS has won popularity for policies that have led to increased social spending.' They wouldn't get that under Tusk.

Poland: hundreds of thousands march against rightwing populist government

‘We’re half a million here,’ says Donald Tusk at what he says is biggest political gathering since Poland regained independence

www.theguardian.com

Is Poland another area of your expertise? Or are you bored of passing patronising judgement on Russians and Ukrainians and looking somewhere new to banally theorise about

 

[Ax^]

people protesting against a ring wing populist government is now somehow a bad thing


our putin bot is sticking to his line at least

 

[RD2003]

people protesting against a ring wing populist government is now somehow a bad thing


our putin bot is sticking to his line at least

Didn't say it was bad to protest against the current Polish government. But it's important to remember that this is the liberal right protesting against the conservative right. A bit like here but more exaggerated.

 

[RD2003]

Is Poland another area of your expertise? Or are you bored of passing patronising judgement on Russians and Ukrainians and looking somewhere new to banally theorise about

Stayed in Polish homes several times in the early-mid 90s, but that doesn't make you an expert, I know. I don't remember professing to be an expert on anything.

Nor do I see what's patronising about describing the Polish government and opposition as they clearly are.

 

[Ax^]

the conservative right being mentioned being hard right is the only caveat i would add to your remarks

 

[tim]

Stayed in Polish homes several times in the early-mid 90s, but that doesn't make you an expert, I know. I don't remember professing to be an expert on anything.

Nor do I see what's patronising about describing the Polish government and opposition as it clearly is.

I lived there from 1996-1997 and I know fuck all about the current situation, but I'm convinced that you don't know how "it clearly is" either. Hopefully, there are others posting here who are in a position to help both you and I gain a more nuanced insight into what is actually happening. and what people want.

 

[RD2003]

the conservative right being mentioned being hard right is the only caveat i would add to your remarks

If I understand you correctly, then I'd say that there's a difference between those who can be described as truly hard right and those who hedge their bets. The Polish government obviously wants it both ways: to incrementally introduce hard right policies while staying on the right side of the line for EU acceptance and funding. Their playing on the age-old fear of Russia obviously plays well with their western paymasters, as the article says. NATO and the EU, I guess, would prefer that than the likes of Tusk muddying the waters, even if Tusk smiles more, and better expresses the obligatory happy-clappy view of the world.

 

[Ax^]

as tim has indicated i don't know enough about the country to comment completely

just if you in a country with history of being conservative with a hard link to catholic old world views regarding personally freedoms

i'd pick the other side

don't think being pro choice and other freedoms in 2023 is that happy clappy by the way fella

hopefully people with more localised knowledge appear to comment

 

[RD2003]

I lived there from 1996-1997 and I know fuck all about the current situation, but I'm convinced that you don't know how "it clearly is" either. Hopefully, there are others posting here who are in a position to help both you and I gain a more nuanced insight into what is actually happening. and what people want.

I haven't claimed that there aren't nuances. But both you and I know already that the only choice is between the Catholic right and the socially liberal right, who will inevitably be more economically neo-liberal than the current government.

Where did you live in '96-7? Slightly earlier than that, I used to stop off for a week or two in a small-medium sized town called Sieradz, not too far from Lodz. Also spent quite a bit of time in Warsaw, Krakow and Zakopane, and also paid visits to Gdansk and Sopot.

 

[RD2003]

as tim has indicated i don't know enough about the country to comment completely

just if you in a country with history of being conservative with a hard link to catholic old world views regarding personally freedoms

i'd pick the other side

don't think being pro choice and other freedoms in 2023 is that happy clappy by the way fella

hopefully people with more localised knowledge appear to comment

Local knowledge will be entirely dependent on pre-existing political prejudices, and so only partially useful. But as I say to Timothy, we know in advance that there are only two options of outcome.

I've always been pro-choice myself. The issue is that to get to a society where it's fully acceptable you have to swallow what those who dominate the current opposition also stand for, and it's clear what the likes of Tusk stand for economically. Obviously this will suit some pro-choice types and not others.

 

[kebabking]

FabricLiveBaby! actually lives in Poland, perhaps the conversation might be enhanced by her insights...?

(I'm living in Poland at the moment, but not speaking Polish to any extent, and the knowledge that I'm not here permanently, limits my ability to offer any profound thoughts - I have a view, but you wouldn't want to bet your children's lives on the understanding that forms that view...)

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

@FabricLiveBaby! actually lives in Poland, perhaps the conversation might be enhanced by her insights...?

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

Really not sure what you, or anyone on the thread would like to know.

There doesn't, actually, seem to be a single question on here, just a lot of opinions.

What would you like me to comment on? Would anyone like to know anything?

 

[ska invita]

dont know what the complaint is, the OP is correct, those are the two positions on the table and on the streets - not all that different to the UK tbh

'PiS has won popularity for policies that have led to increased social spending.' They wouldn't get that under Tusk.

this is also correct, though hard to imagine Tusk or anyone else removing the PiS 'social spending' now its there. IIRC the key policy is you get money per child - its very much a Catholic-nationalist form of social spending

 

[ska invita]

The interesting questions is why is the left so weak and unsupported (barely single figures in elections IIRC), and how much of that is to do with the legacy of Communism

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

I mean, he's correct and incorrect.

The protests are mainly about authoriitarianism vs anti-authoritarianism when it comes to democracy (liberal or no). PiS are basically outsourcing everything to Ordo Luris - a mad Catholic legal lobby group - who purportedly be in charge of "finding Russian influence". That's the same group that brought the constitutional tribunal to a baised judmental panel and got abortion effecgtively banned in Poland constitutionally - bypassing any acual need for a democratic vote.


The probelm with this new law is that it is worded very vaguely, and knowing the history of the ruling party, and how they and Ordo Luris operate, it's not a strech to suspect they're gonna uses it to gerrymander the vote and get people that they don't like off the voting ballot.

Even staunch intellectual supporters of PiS have said this is a worrying move.

Promotor Andrzeja Dudy: jest mi wstyd za osobę, która u mnie robiła doktorat (bung it into translate)

To such an extent that there's already talk of U-turns

Polish president proposes overhaul of Russian influence law days after signing it

His U-turn follows concern from the US and EU that the commission could be used for political purposes against the opposition.

notesfrompoland.com

The interesting questions is why is the left so weak and unsupported (barely single figures in elections IIRC), and how much of that is to do with the legacy of Communism

It's all to do with the legacy of Communism.

PiS and PO are the remanants of the leftover arms of the solidarity movement - which was anti communist (and not left wing). The two arms of that were the Catholic nationalists and the liberal - captialists.

That's why you have a wierd split where the Catholic nationalists are actually working on things like having things like child benefit, disability living allowance, govt spending. Poland is still very much ruralised - lots of people still live in villiages and small towns, and you go to these small towns and they look nice, the roads are good, the pavements are nice, kids are being educated, healthcare works, yeah there's problems but they are spending the money (even if they're nepostitic and pocketing half of it, even if they don't like minorty groups). Most people in the areas they vote for have nothing to complain about.

It's a different story in the cities and economic hubs which lean towards liberal-capitalism, and social liberalism too. Krakow is an orange island in a sea of blue (the whole of malopolske county vote PiS outside of Krakow).

Interestingly the orange and blue lines are split roughly betweent historically German/Russian partition lines (Polska A and Polska B) when Poland was wiped off the map. That's one of the reasons why the nationalist tendancy is so strong. You kinda get a bit nationalist when your country hasn't existed for 200 years and you only got it back quite recently.

If you want to get a better feel for what's going on Notes from Poland is a good English news site and more reliable than the Gruiniad and

@danieltilles1 is worth following on Twitter.

 

[ska invita]

Poland is still very much ruralised - lots of people still live in villiages and small towns, and you go to these small towns and they look nice, the roads are good, the pavements are nice, kids are being educated, healthcare works, yeah there's problems but they are spending the money (even if they're nepostitic and pocketing half of it, even if they don't like minorty groups). Most people in the areas they vote for have nothing to complain about.

The upgraded change in the quality of infrastructure is absolutely down to the economic redistributive aspects of the EU. Poland has really benefited from the EU and the public know it, which is why Poland has the highest support for the EU of all members.

And as to why you see EU flags at a demo like this its because PiS are threatening EU membership with their anti-democratic laws, and leaving the EU is the preserve of the far right in Poland. Did you see the story about the Polish EUFA referee who 'accidently' spoke at a far-right rally? Key figure of that far-right movement Sławomir Mentzen recently said “We stand against Jews, the homosexuals, abortion, taxes and the European Union.”

 

[RD2003]

I mean, he's correct and incorrect.

The protests are mainly about authoriitarianism vs anti-authoritarianism when it comes to democracy (liberal or no). PiS are basically outsourcing everything to Ordo Luris - a mad Catholic legal lobby group - who purportedly be in charge of "finding Russian influence". That's the same group that brought the constitutional tribunal to a baised judmental panel and got abortion effecgtively banned in Poland constitutionally - bypassing any acual need for a democratic vote.


The probelm with this new law is that it is worded very vaguely, and knowing the history of the ruling party, and how they and Ordo Luris operate, it's not a strech to suspect they're gonna uses it to gerrymander the vote and get people that they don't like off the voting ballot.




It's all to do with the legacy of Communism.

PiS and PO are the remanants of the leftover arms of the solidarity movement - which was anti communist (and not left wing). The two arms of that were the Catholic nationalists and the liberal - captialists.

The far-left over here was, by and large, highly supportive of Solidarity, but even in my late teens I couldn't help wondering if we were projecting fantasies of 'self-managed socialism' and the like onto what was basically a Polish nationalist, anti-Soviet/anti-Russian movement. I helped tour a Solidarity activist who got stuck here when martial law was declared around shop stewards committees and Labour Party branches. He didn't speak a word of English, and I sometimes imagined that those doing the translating weren't entirely faithful to what he was actually saying. Or else that he was merely telling us what he imagined we wanted to hear merely in order to raise money and drum up support. But I didn't speak Polish either.

Having said that, I do think that there was a strong, if vague, socialist element to Solidarity at the time. It seemed to get lost when the movement was driven underground and fragmented. It was inevitable that the CIA and Vatican favoured, and western-funded elements were going to come out on top.

 

[The39thStep]

I mean, he's correct and incorrect.

The protests are mainly about authoriitarianism vs anti-authoritarianism when it comes to democracy (liberal or no). PiS are basically outsourcing everything to Ordo Luris - a mad Catholic legal lobby group - who purportedly be in charge of "finding Russian influence". That's the same group that brought the constitutional tribunal to a baised judmental panel and got abortion effecgtively banned in Poland constitutionally - bypassing any acual need for a democratic vote.


The probelm with this new law is that it is worded very vaguely, and knowing the history of the ruling party, and how they and Ordo Luris operate, it's not a strech to suspect they're gonna uses it to gerrymander the vote and get people that they don't like off the voting ballot.

Even staunch intellectual supporters of PiS have said this is a worrying move.

Promotor Andrzeja Dudy: jest mi wstyd za osobę, która u mnie robiła doktorat (bung it into translate)

To such an extent that there's already talk of U-turns

Polish president proposes overhaul of Russian influence law days after signing it

His U-turn follows concern from the US and EU that the commission could be used for political purposes against the opposition.

notesfrompoland.com

It's all to do with the legacy of Communism.

PiS and PO are the remanants of the leftover arms of the solidarity movement - which was anti communist (and not left wing). The two arms of that were the Catholic nationalists and the liberal - captialists.

That's why you have a wierd split where the Catholic nationalists are actually working on things like having things like child benefit, disability living allowance, govt spending. Poland is still very much ruralised - lots of people still live in villiages and small towns, and you go to these small towns and they look nice, the roads are good, the pavements are nice, kids are being educated, healthcare works, yeah there's problems but they are spending the money (even if they're nepostitic and pocketing half of it, even if they don't like minorty groups). Most people in the areas they vote for have nothing to complain about.

It's a different story in the cities and economic hubs which lean towards liberal-capitalism, and social liberalism too. Krakow is an orange island in a sea of blue (the whole of malopolske county vote PiS outside of Krakow).

Interestingly the orange and blue lines are split roughly betweent historically German/Russian partition lines (Polska A and Polska B) when Poland was wiped off the map. That's one of the reasons why the nationalist tendancy is so strong. You kinda get a bit nationalist when your country hasn't existed for 200 years and you only got it back quite recently.

If you want to get a better feel for what's going on Notes from Poland is a good English news site and more reliable than the Gruiniad and

@danieltilles1 is worth following on Twitter.

Is there any difference in their economic policies? Who do the trade unions support?

 

[ska invita]

The far-left over here was, by and large, highly supportive of Solidarity, but even in my late teens I couldn't help wondering if we were projecting fantasies of 'self-managed socialism' and the like onto what was basically a Polish nationalist, anti-Soviet/anti-Russian movement. I helped tour a Solidarity activist who got stuck here when martial law was declared around shop stewards committees and Labour Party branches. He didn't speak a word of English, and I sometimes imagined that those doing the translating weren't entirely faithful to what he was actually saying. Or else that he was merely telling us what he imagined we wanted to hear merely in order to raise money and drum up support. But I didn't speak Polish either.

Having said that, I do think that there was a strong, if vague, socialist element to Solidarity at the time. It seemed to get lost when the movement was driven underground and fragmented. It was inevitable that the CIA and Vatican favoured, and western-funded elements were going to come out on top.

....a long history of the British left projecting onto eastern european politics, continues most clearly to this day amongst the pro-Putin cultists

 

[RD2003]

....a long history of the British left projecting onto eastern european politics, continues most clearly to this day amongst the pro-Putin cultists

Such as that exists, I think it's a phenomenon born of despair at the breakdown of the western left. In 1981-2, it was at least applied to a movement that to all outwards appearances, comprised the workers acting for themselves.

 

[RD2003]

I seem to remember thinking this wasn't bad when I watched it long ago.



Edit: it works if you type it into YT.

 

[Sweet FA]

Is Poland another area of your expertise?

Rubbish objection - like expertise has ever stood in the way of pontification on here.

Bit of google, stick your finger in the air, wiki if you want to go deep, YT for real research, then bob's your mother's brother; you're an urban expert. Covid, Ukraine, Phil & Holly; we've got experts for everything.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

Is there any difference in their economic policies? Who do the trade unions support?

PO is more free market, and mainly do liberal IDpol. PiS have more economic social policies - they're the one who bought in child bennefit for example. Trade unions don't really support anyone - they aren't very big and the ones who do have teeth (mining - mainly) will just fight whoever is in power to get the best deal for their workers.

The upgraded change in the quality of infrastructure is absolutely down to the economic redistributive aspects of the EU. Poland has really benefited from the EU and the public know it, which is why Poland has the highest support for the EU of all members.

And as to why you see EU flags at a demo like this its because PiS are threatening EU membership with their anti-democratic laws, and leaving the EU is the preserve of the far right in Poland. Did you see the story about the Polish EUFA referee who 'accidently' spoke at a far-right rally? Key figure of that far-right movement Sławomir Mentzen recently said “We stand against Jews, the homosexuals, abortion, taxes and the European Union.”

You're absolutely right in that. Poland has benefited massivley from the EU and everyone knows it. Even PiS don't make a song and dance about EU to the electorate because they know that their electorate gets loads of cash and from the EU and is part of the reason why their roads are much nicer.

They mainly put the boot in undemocratically, by brining in anti-eu rhertoric and policies (like the judicial policy) that no one voted for.

Poles would never vote to leave the EU in vast numbers but so it seems that PiS's best bet is to do what they are doing now and get kicked out without much of the funding drying up first.

Extremely frustrating.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

More news: EU thinking of bringing in observations for the elections:

EU groups call for "full-scale observation" of Polish elections amid concerns over "democratic standards"

The letter is signed by the leaders of groups representing over 75% of the European Parliament's members.

notesfrompoland.com

 

[RD2003]

Thinking about it, it's little wonder that there was so much western input into shaping the outcome in 1980s Poland, as it has become the dream society for the then burgeoning Neocon cult, soon to wrap their tentacles around the centre-right and centre-left the world over. A society where the main conflict is between social conservatives and 'westernising' liberals, with the left nowhere in sight and trade unions weak and fragmented, and capital never challenged.

 

[Dogsauce]

Tentacles eh?

 

[ska invita]

More news: EU thinking of bringing in observations for the elections:

EU groups call for "full-scale observation" of Polish elections amid concerns over "democratic standards"

The letter is signed by the leaders of groups representing over 75% of the European Parliament's members.

notesfrompoland.com

"They note that, at the last Polish parliamentary elections in 2019, the OSCE sent a limited observation mission to Poland. Its report found that “media bias” and “intolerant rhetoric” had “adversely impacted the opportunity of voters to make an informed choice”."


I don't see how sending more observers will change that. State media reaching impressive new depths, and as for intolerant rhetoric, that gets you a seat on Question Time and a talk radio show in the UK, so what is anyone expecting?

All feels very toothless. You don't need observers to see what's going on

 

[ska invita]

Really interesting/depressing situation in Poland with lessons for everywhere else....

There are elections in Poland in October... PiS (national conservative catholic headbangers) vs Civil Platform (abbreviated to PO) - basically a Lib Dem style party enjoying the backing of smaller parties in an electoral pact to get PiS out. Its led by Donal Tusk. PiS is still a little bit ahead in the polls but PO aren't that far behind.

PiS have come up with a clever idea. At the election there will also be referendum questions. How binding the answer to any of these questions is I have no idea, I cant find any comment on that...I would guess basically no. More "indicative" I would presume.

Seems to me above all PiS are cleverly using the referendum questions purely as political messaging. PiS leader Kaczynski is basically setting the election up as PiS vs an EU conspiracy with PO support....PiS say "The Germans (considered defacto leaders of the EU) want to embed Tusk in Poland to sell off common property, his background shows it directly," Parallels with Brexit election are very strong.

Three referendum questions are
1. "Do you support the privatisation of state companies" ( i cant find precise wording). as above quote suggests the questions is designed to flag up that fear that neolibs will sell off state assets at the EUs/Germanys bidding. Degree of truth mixed with conspiracy....supposedly PiS sold some state assets off themselves so its clever stuff.

2. "Are you in favour of raising the retirement age which today is 60 for women and 65 for men?".
Context here is

In 2017, the PiS government decided to lower the retirement age to 60 years for women and 65 for men. Earlier, in 2012, the previous centrist government of the Civic Platform (PO), in coalition with the Polish People's Party (PSL), raised the retirement age from 60 to 67 for women and from 65 to 67 for men.

3. And a good dose of racism and xenophobia to finish with
“Do you support the admission of thousands of illegal immigrants from the Middle East and Africa under the forced relocation mechanism imposed by European bureaucracy?”
Poland has taken in about a million Ukrainian refugees - this is basically considered fine because Ukrainians are "white".
Now the EU is once again trying to make an EU wide policy to spread out the number of refugees coming from the south across member states. Didnt work last time so cant see how it will this time. Nonetheless the PiS response is full on racist:

[a campaign video includes] scenes of street violence in western Europe, involving burning buildings and vehicles, an allusion to recent riots in France. In one scene, a black man is seen licking a large knife. The pictures are accompanied by the voice of PiS’s leader, Jarosław Kaczyński, who asks: “Do you want this to happen in Poland as well? Do you want to stop being masters of your own country?”

PiS seem sure to win to me, and its easy to see why. Two flavours of right wing shite is increasingly the norm in Europe. Amazingly at some level the offer from PiS is basically a step up from what Labour are offering.