Pink Reader. Clapham Junction.

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

So I had to go to Kingston and back from East Croydon yesterday. The route finder seemed to want me to go to London then get a train from there down to kingston. . . but obviously I could just get off at Clapham and change there (as the london trains go back through clapham anyway so I would just be wasting another 20 minutes or so journey time). .

I checked the Oyster fare finder and. . . yes. It says the route isn't through zone 1 so only costs a fiver at peak times.
There is no mention of having to tap a pink reader to prove you were changing in zone 2. In fact there are no pink readers on the platforms.
. . . but there are, and you do have to tap them. There is one on platform 1 because there is an overground connection. . . without checking how would you reasonably be supposed to know this? Plus it's a bit of a shelp down to platform 1 and back. It certainly doesn't seem very natural. That's a difference of £3 each way so £6 you didn't need to pay for a return journey.

Bad enough that it's not at all clear what to do when getting off the tram at wimbledon and changing to trains (and vice versa).

 

[Puddy_Tat]

pink oyster readers are a bit of a mystery to me - when i'm travelling in london i tend either to get a day travelcard, or just do buses.

there's a page on pink oyster readers here

it refers to using them "If you're travelling across London but not through Zone 1" and "when travelling on London Overground, Elizabeth line and the Tube."

My gut feeling (which may or may not match what the system thinks) is that neither of these apply, so you shouldn't need to go and find the pink reader.

and it says to "Use our single fare finder to check whether you need to touch on a pink card reader for your journey or to see if there's a cheaper route."

this is what i got on the fare finder for e croydon - kingston, and it doesn't say anything about touching a pink reader



if you were doing E Croydon - Kingston on a paper ticket, I'm pretty sure the default option would be not to expect you to go via a central london terminus, and ticket would probably be marked 'not London' (I used to commute from Berkshire to Wimbledon, and my ticket was marked 'not London' - which meant change at Clapham Junction not Waterloo.)

Have you been charged the 'via London' fare? If so, I'd be inclined to ring up or e-mail (I'm not sure how it works) and argue about it - on the basis the instructions say the fare finder will tell you if you need to use the pink reader and it didn't.

Alternatively, this is an unofficial site but fairly highly respected and may be worth a look if you can face it.

And for future reference, you can do Croydon - Kingston for a bus fare on route X26 but it may take a bit longer (X26 is limited stop but doesn't have the ability to get round traffic jams)

 

[Leafster]

I used to travel once a month or so from Upper Warlingham to Kensington Olympia and originally I bought a ticket that was 'via Clapham Junction' which was cheaper as I didn't go into Zone 1. I had to ask for it at the ticket office or choose it from the options on the ticket machine. It was only some while after I started using an Oyster card I spotted the pink card reader on platform 1/2 at Clapham Junction and worked out what it was for. It didn't seem to be publicised at all.

I don't remember seeing any other pink card readers elsewhere at CJ which is odd. Assuming it still runs, there was a train that ran through Kensington Olympia via Clapham Junction (platform 17?) and terminated at East Croydon. If you used that and had to nip off the train at Clapham Junction to tap the pink reader, there's no way you could run to platform 1/2 and back and still get back on the train before it left!

 

[Sue]

I always tap at Highbury and Islington when moving between the overground and the tube. Looks like I probably don't need to, given I'm almost always going into zone 1. (I've never been quite sure about this so this thread is v helpful!l)

 

[pbsmooth]

I still don't know whether you have to tap when changing like that. I quickly decided that seeing as hardly anyone seems to do it, it can't be necessary...

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

pink oyster readers are a bit of a mystery to me - when i'm travelling in london i tend either to get a day travelcard, or just do buses.

there's a page on pink oyster readers here

it refers to using them "If you're travelling across London but not through Zone 1" and "when travelling on London Overground, Elizabeth line and the Tube."

My gut feeling (which may or may not match what the system thinks) is that neither of these apply, so you shouldn't need to go and find the pink reader.

and it says to "Use our single fare finder to check whether you need to touch on a pink card reader for your journey or to see if there's a cheaper route."

this is what i got on the fare finder for e croydon - kingston, and it doesn't say anything about touching a pink reader

View attachment 367723

if you were doing E Croydon - Kingston on a paper ticket, I'm pretty sure the default option would be not to expect you to go via a central london terminus, and ticket would probably be marked 'not London' (I used to commute from Berkshire to Wimbledon, and my ticket was marked 'not London' - which meant change at Clapham Junction not Waterloo.)

Have you been charged the 'via London' fare? If so, I'd be inclined to ring up or e-mail (I'm not sure how it works) and argue about it - on the basis the instructions say the fare finder will tell you if you need to use the pink reader and it didn't.

Alternatively, this is an unofficial site but fairly highly respected and may be worth a look if you can face it.

And for future reference, you can do Croydon - Kingston for a bus fare on route X26 but it may take a bit longer (X26 is limited stop but doesn't have the ability to get round traffic jams)

Well yes. . this is the reason for the thread.
It says that the flat fare is not through zone 1, though in reality it assumes you will go through zone 1 by default and will charge you for that.
If you look elsewhere on the site (not the page this fare information is from) there is a disclaimer about you having to touch a pink reader where available or you will be charged the zone 1 fare otherwise).

. . and on every page it says "Some journeys are charged via Zone 1 irrespective of the route taken."

Yes I assume it through emails or phone calls you would get your money back, but it's really rather unreasonable. There are loads of oyster train journeys that can be made skipping Central London in this way, but pink readers are only available at tube/overground locations (platform 1).

Just to confuse things there is another kind of reader for rail transfers (at Wimbledon) for instance where you might get a tram in which only needs one tap. Again, you just have to know that you need to find an present you card on these rather than start and end a journey as normal. I looked at the info on the station. These readers were only on one platform and not clearly labeled for their use.

 

[Sue]

I still don't know whether you have to tap when changing like that. I quickly decided that seeing as hardly anyone seems to do it, it can't be necessary...

Yeah, I mean if I got the overground from Dalston Junction to H&I and then the tube to Walthamstow, should I tap, even though there'd be no logical reason to go via zone 1?

 

[Leafster]

I still don't know whether you have to tap when changing like that. I quickly decided that seeing as hardly anyone seems to do it, it can't be necessary...

I think it might depend on whether your combined journey fares are below the daily price cap. If they aren't, it's not worth tapping the pink reader as it won't make a difference.

I'm not sure though.

 

[pbsmooth]

I think it might depend on whether your combined journey fares are below the daily price cap. If they aren't, it's not worth tapping the pink reader as it won't make a difference.

I'm not sure though.

just used this: Single fare finder

and I have realised that my journey increases nearly 50% if I change at certain stations! how am I so clueless after nearly 20 years in London.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

There is another annoying oddity.

If you say you are traveling from East Croydon to Highbury and Islington the fare is £4
That's the first price. Standard.
However, the second price is £3.30 if you take a ridiculous route through Stratford. I assume you would have to change at Clapham Junction tap there and do something weird and lengthy on the overground and DLR or tube?. . . but it's there, labeled as the second option.

Then there is a third and fourth option. for £5.70
Changing between National Rail and London Underground at Blackfriars, London Bridge or Victoria (or Cannon Street, Charing Cross, Waterloo or Waterloo East
Or option four
Changing between National Rail and London Underground at Vauxhall (or Battersea Park/Battersea Power Station or Queenstown Road/Battersea Power Station or Elephant & Castle)

. . . so that basically covers every single way except fannying
around on the overground at Clapham Junction finding that pink reader and going some bonkers route. . . This means it's almost impossible (certainly logically or intuitively) to take a route that will charge you the number one listed fare. You are almost certainly going to get the £5.70 ticket (£8 peak)

 

[Puddy_Tat]

I always tap at Highbury and Islington when moving between the overground and the tube. Looks like I probably don't need to, given I'm almost always going into zone 1. (I've never been quite sure about this so this thread is v helpful!l)

I still don't know whether you have to tap when changing like that. I quickly decided that seeing as hardly anyone seems to do it, it can't be necessary...

no. the point of the pink readers is to show you've changed between the great northern and one of the orbital lines on the overground and are not going across central london, not to show that you're changing to go to zone 1.

if you finish your journey in zone 1, touching the pink reader probably won't make a difference, but wonder if it might just confuse it if you were continuing to underground zone 2 (e.g. brixton), or even if it might think you're trying to fiddle the system by pretending not to go via zone 1.

It says that the flat fare is not through zone 1, though in reality it assumes you will go through zone 1 by default and will charge you for that.

Yes I assume it through emails or phone calls you would get your money back, but it's really rather unreasonable. There are loads of oyster train journeys that can be made skipping Central London in this way, but pink readers are only available at tube/overground locations (platform 1).

hmm.

there must be a lot of journeys made via clapham junction that involve coming from the south, then changing to another line heading south (as in the 'southern' lines, the south western 'main line' via wimbledon, the 'windsor' lines.

in most cases, staying on the first train and going to waterloo would not be logical, and the fact that the pink readers are only on platform 1/2 sort of implies you only have to use them when changing to / from the overground.

i guess it depends how you define 'through' central london. there are some journeys from one bit of south london to another that would have to go via a london terminus (e.g. anything form a south eastern station on a line to victoria, or change from south eastern to southern at london bridge)

If you say you are traveling from East Croydon to Highbury and Islington the fare is £4
That's the first price. Standard.
However, the second price is £3.30 if you take a ridiculous route through Stratford. I assume you would have to change at Clapham Junction tap there and do something weird and lengthy on the overground and DLR or tube?. . . but it's there, labeled as the second option.

I think the £ 4 option would be expecting change to overground somewhere between norwood junction and new cross gate.

'via Stratford' is interesting. i guess it's a new option involving change to lizard line at whitechapel then overground from stratford, in order to avoid going through the bit of zone 1 at shoreditch overground, but it's not a route i'd have thought of, or considered worth the effort to save 70p. the fare finder for that did come up with the message about using the pink reader, which the kingston - croydon thing didn't.

it didn't offer an east croydon - clapham junction - overground - highbury and islington, which would be a long way round but also avoid zone 1.

the whole system's a bit of a mess and a consequence of trying to make a TFL ticket / fare system (oyster) work on National Rail services which have the national fare scheme, and there isn't the political will to try and sort it out (in practical terms, it would either mean nationalising TFL or at least its fare structure, which probably wouldn't be popular, or for TFL fares to be imposed on national rail services inside greater london, then one way or another TFL would need to pay national rail the difference.

and a zone system is always going to cause some anomalies where some journeys can be made via an orbital route, and others don't have that option.

Going back to the specifics, you could try a thread on rail forums - a former urbanite expert on train ticketing is still on there...

i think you should have caught the X26 in the first place and avoided all this crap

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

hmm.

there must be a lot of journeys made via clapham junction that involve coming from the south, then changing to another line heading south (as in the 'southern' lines, the south western 'main line' via wimbledon, the 'windsor' lines.

in most cases, staying on the first train and going to waterloo would not be logical, and the fact that the pink readers are only on platform 1/2 sort of implies you only have to use them when changing to / from the overground.

Except it charges you for going into zone one if you don't

i guess it depends how you define 'through' central london.

It says into zone 1 not through central london. If the line enters zone 1 you pay the fare. The overground from west Croydon specifically makes the stop after whitechapel zone 1 before becoming zone 2 again on the very next stop. Stops it from being a cheap north to south line.

I think the £ 4 option would be expecting change to overground somewhere between norwood junction and new cross gate.

Yes. Could be, i didn't think of that, but that's far less convenient or obvious.

'via Stratford' is interesting. i guess it's a new option involving change to lizard line at whitechapel then overground from stratford, in order to avoid going through the bit of zone 1 at shoreditch overground, but it's not a route i'd have thought of, or considered worth the effort to save 70p. the fare finder for that did come up with the message about using the pink reader, which the kingston - croydon thing didn't.

Not the lizard line. This fare option via Stratford has been there for years.

i think you should have caught the X26 in the first place and avoided all this crap

X26 is an hour long journey and only runs once an hour. I could not leave early and could not arrive late because I had an appointment. Both the train and the tram train combination were quicker. The x26 has also been quite unreliable in my experience. Sometimes arriving very late or not at all (which it did once when I decided to take it to Heathrow).

 

[T & P]

It can’t be long before Public Transport Fares and Limitations becomes an official UK University Subject. A four-year degree at least, surely.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Except it charges you for going into zone one if you don't

again

national rail enquiries says it's 5.80 single from East Croydon to Kingston and that's not valid via a London terminus station. that would be based on buying a paper ticket from ticket office or machine.

and it says 'from 3.50' with oyster / contactless but doesn't say anything about what route/s that is valid on, or anything about pink readers.

if you can genuinely get a better fare out of PAYG by using the pink reader at clapham junction for a southern - south western journey, then i guess it's not very well known, as that pretty much contradicts what it says on the TFL page about pink readers.

might be interesting to start a thread on rail forums and see what happens.

the whole bloody thing is crackers. (train fares that is, not rail forums although it has its moments.)

(and for clarity, i'm not a railway person. the nearest i've got to railway work is running rail replacement bus services)

Both the train and the tram train combination were quicker.

yes, but look at the big picture - how much additional time have you spent on this thread?

 

[Elpenor]

My sympathies as I manage to balls up the tapping in and out every time I visit London

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

again

national rail enquiries says it's 5.80 single from East Croydon to Kingston and that's not valid via a London terminus station. that would be based on buying a paper ticket from ticket office or machine.

Paper ticket so not relevant. Technically a guard (remember those) could check your ticket on board and give you a fine.

and it says 'from 3.50' with oyster / contactless but doesn't say anything about what route/s that is valid on, or anything about pink readers.

As mentioned previously, it's not very clear . . .but it has a disclaimer saying that you may be charged the route through zone 1 by default on some routes.
I'm pretty sure I was previously.
It also says nothing about touching a pink reader on the highbury route I mentioned, but I have done that before without tapping pink and been charged the zone 1 price.

if you can genuinely get a better fare out of PAYG by using the pink reader at clapham junction for a southern - south western journey, then i guess it's not very well known, as that pretty much contradicts what it says on the TFL page about pink readers.

Not a 'better' fare, just the advertised fare.
The TFL page for pink readers did say that you you might be charged the zone 1 fare by default on some routes.

yes, but look at the big picture - how much additional time have you spent on this thread?

As mentioned in my previous explanation, it was that I couldn't leave until a certain time and I had to arrive by a certain time. If I had had all day to get to kingston I would have probably got on the X26. . . but I only had an hour to get there door to door. The X26 took longer than that without walking each end even if you discard the fact there is only one bus per hour at a specific time.
Being on the internet after the event quite obviously does not eat into any of the time I spent on my journey in the past.