Oxford Circus station bombed on Christmas day (graffiti)

[nogojones]

What I love most about this artwork is the way it makes a bunch of Urbans clutch their pearls. "You bastards, you've spoilt my pretty trains"

 

[teuchter]

What I love most about this artwork is the way it makes a bunch of Urbans clutch their pearls. "You bastards, you've spoilt my pretty trains"

Our pretty trains.

 

[ska invita]

DDS been going since mid 90s

A bit earlier than that even
Original London Graf 'kings'...line up has changed, lots of prison spells for the original crew
Bit of a new wave involved at the moment

Shameless vandals, they wouldn't argue

 

[existentialist]

Why are the disaffected not spraypainting the luxury SUVs of Chelsea? Or indeed the expensive vehicles of gentrifiers more local to them? Why always public transport and communal infrastructure?

It's a serious question. I think it's important to consider, and regardless of the rights and wrongs of the acts of graffiti artists, I do think that the policy we have in london/uk, which is to put quite a lot of effort into cleaning it up asap and generally not tolerating having buses and trains running around with graffiti on them, is the right one. Just like many people take pride in their private car or bike and keep it clean, the same should be true for public transport. Otherwise the message is that it's the lower status form of transport and belongs to a world that the aspiration should be to escape. This I suspect is why the golden sports cars of Mayfair don't get attacked - because they are something to be aspired to and represent the better part of society. I refuse to go along with that.

Before anyone starts with the whataboutery of adverts in trains and stations - yes I would prefer if this also didn't exist. I'd like public transport infrastructure to be something that is a joy to use and a source of communal pride. There's a little bit of this in the london transport system with the high level of care taken over signage design and so on. Moscow has its chandeliers in its metro stations.

teuchter, you're asking about specifics of antisocial behaviour, but I'm talking about generalities. Mainly because the complexity of the issue is such that when you start getting down to individual cases - "why don't they just graffiti SUVs", for example - there aren't really any answers to be had.

But it is undeniable that, as poverty and alienation in a given part of society goes up, so do levels of crime, including (and probably mostly) petty crime like graffitiing. The "Edinburgh Study of Youth Transitions and Crime" focuses on this link in regard to violent crime, but I see no reason to assume that it doesn't extend down the spectrum to other forms of criminal and antisocial behaviour.

 

[ska invita]

I’d love to follow these cunts home and spray paint their rooms, TV’s, clothes and possessions to see how the fuck they like it when it’s done to them.

I know someone from DDS, back in 1992...a care leaver... Everything in his bedsit WAS blammed.

 

[maomao]

Why are the disaffected not spraypainting the luxury SUVs of Chelsea? Or indeed the expensive vehicles of gentrifiers more local to them? Why always public transport and communal infrastructure?

It's a serious question. I think it's important to consider, and regardless of the rights and wrongs of the acts of graffiti artists, I do think that the policy we have in london/uk, which is to put quite a lot of effort into cleaning it up asap and generally not tolerating having buses and trains running around with graffiti on them, is the right one. Just like many people take pride in their private car or bike and keep it clean, the same should be true for public transport. Otherwise the message is that it's the lower status form of transport and belongs to a world that the aspiration should be to escape. This I suspect is why the golden sports cars of Mayfair don't get attacked - because they are something to be aspired to and represent the better part of society. I refuse to go along with that.

Before anyone starts with the whataboutery of adverts in trains and stations - yes I would prefer if this also didn't exist. I'd like public transport infrastructure to be something that is a joy to use and a source of communal pride. There's a little bit of this in the london transport system with the high level of care taken over signage design and so on. Moscow has its chandeliers in its metro stations.

Because, whether you enjoy it or approve of it or not, it's an artistic act not a political one and public transport infrastructure offers the best opportunity to be seen by lots of people. And a closed tube station at Christmas offers a unique opportunity to work on large pieces without being bothered. Can you suggest a better place? Painting private cars certainly can't compete.

 

[Indeliblelink]

A bit earlier than that even
Original London Graf 'kings'...line up has changed, lots of prison spells for the original crew
Bit of a new wave involved at the moment

Shameless vandals, they wouldn't argue

The founder members had been writing since mid 80s but didn't start that crew till 92/93ish although not sure I'd call DDS original London graf kings,
WD, WRH, CCD were the most respected in the 80s, Nonstop & TCA too but they didn't do so much illegal stuff.

 

[ska invita]

...when I see a beautifully graffitied train pull into a station, I can't help but wanting to applaud.

Encore!

 

[ska invita]

Because, whether you enjoy it or approve of it or not, it's an artistic act not a political one

Not all writers see themselves as artists, some are just proud vandals and out for fame

 

[teuchter]

Because, whether you enjoy it or approve of it or not, it's an artistic act not a political one and public transport infrastructure offers the best opportunity to be seen by lots of people.

Well, that's kid of my point - it's an egotistical act, all about getting your work seen. It's for the benefit of the artist rather than anyone else and that's why I don't have a lot of time for all the stuff about it being some kind of principled anarchist action or whatever. The fact that it's an individual getting their kicks at a cost to everyone else is what I see as the problem. There are plenty of spectators who like to make out like it's all fun because it causes the middle classes to clutch at their pearls, but I don't think that's what's happening really, it's just the defacement of a public environment that's used by everyone including the minimum wage cleaner coming home from work at 5am. If anything they are less likely to be cheered by some graffiti on the window of their train than the urban75 poster who likes looking at graffiti websites, pontificating on the socio-cultural meaning of it all, and probably goes to work in their own BMW.

 

[maomao]

Not all writers see themselves as artists, some are just proud vandals and out for fame

Which is art as well. Unless you don't think someone like GG Allin was an artist.

 

[maomao]

Well, that's kid of my point - it's an egotistical act, all about getting your work seen. It's for the benefit of the artist rather than anyone else and that's why I don't have a lot of time for all the stuff about it being some kind of principled anarchist action or whatever. The fact that it's an individual getting their kicks at a cost to everyone else is what I see as the problem. There are plenty of spectators who like to make out like it's all fun because it causes the middle classes to clutch at their pearls, but I don't think that's what's happening really, it's just the defacement of a public environment that's used by everyone including the minimum wage cleaner coming home from work at 5am. If anything they are less likely to be cheered by some graffiti on the window of their train than the urban75 poster who likes looking at graffiti websites, pontificating on the socio-cultural meaning of it all, and probably goes to work in their own BMW.

Literally no one has said this is a 'principled anarchist action' and I'm not even sure what that would mean. Could you please stop inventing people's arguments. I'm not an anarchist and I can't see any on this thread.

 

[teuchter]

teuchter, you're asking about specifics of antisocial behaviour, but I'm talking about generalities. Mainly because the complexity of the issue is such that when you start getting down to individual cases - "why don't they just graffiti SUVs", for example - there aren't really any answers to be had.

But it is undeniable that, as poverty and alienation in a given part of society goes up, so do levels of crime, including (and probably mostly) petty crime like graffitiing. The "Edinburgh Study of Youth Transitions and Crime" focuses on this link in regard to violent crime, but I see no reason to assume that it doesn't extend down the spectrum to other forms of criminal and antisocial behaviour.

I'd not argue with that. Petty vandalism is more likely to be aimed at stuff that's already considered crap. People look at the crappy buses and trains they are provided with, don't see them as having any value, so don't care if they mess them up. For everyone. I think they should be provided with the least crappy trains and buses that is possible. That means, for example, you can see out the window and when you stop at a station you can read the sign. There's lots of other stuff too like decent service and affordable fares, which is also important. But arguing for keeping the vehicles in good condition doesn't preclude arguing for that other stuff too. And the more people you can get using it (and feeling safe on it - whether or ot that feeling of safety results from rational interpretations of things like the presence of graffiti) the better chance you have of things improving generally. No surrender to self-centred kids with spray paints.

 

[teuchter]

Literally no one has said this is a 'principled anarchist action' and I'm not even sure what that would mean. Could you please stop inventing people's arguments. I'm not an anarchist and I can't see any on this thread.

Well, we did have this

Urban has definitely lost its anarchist edge if it’s shitting on graffiti.

And the original "artwork"

 

[maomao]

Well, we did have this

If that's the best you can do it rather proves my point.

 

[ska invita]

No surrender to self-centred kids with spray paints.

And plenty of jail time has been served

Which is art as well. Unless you don't think someone like GG Allin was an artist.

GG definitely was , but part of it is about just being a vandal - DDS also stands for Doing Damage Son ! Theres a spectrum there - for some its the crime and the rush that appeals

From the horses mouth

 

[maomao]

And plenty of jail time has been served


GG definitely was , but part of it is about just being a vandal - DDS also stands for Doing Damage Son ! Theres a spectrum there - for some its the crime and the rush that appeals

From the horses mouth

He might not call it art but from the start of the conversation it's clear that he's participating in a cultural activity. And the danger/crime element is a big part of the aesthetic appeal too. Half the pleasure of seeing a good piece of graffiti is wondering how on earth they got away with it.

 

[Clair De Lune]

Notwithstanding all the pissed-offness at it, I think it is useful to see this kind of thing as a fairly straightforward phenomenon that occurs in most societies, and is, essentially, a societal one rather than an individual one. It's all very well suggesting that we wreak some terrible punishment on individuals, but that's not going to make the problem go away. The difficulty here is that pointing the finger at individual culprits, or denying any value or purpose in what they do, feels - and is - a lot easier than getting tangled up in all the behavioural and societal complexities that these things really represent.

Just for example, can we really expect young people, who may well have already fallen foul of a punitive benefits (including housing benefits) scheme and limited job opportunities, will feel that society cares little about them and owes them less, and that this might not lead to their feeling the need to express their views on that situation in ways which INEVITABLY will look like, and be, an attack on that society? Of course, we all know that there are far better ways of achieving change, but in the same way that harrumphing at graffiti FEELS like the best reaction to it, so to them spray-painting stuff (or any of the myriad other petty crimes usually associated with young people) FEELS like a more effective expression of their sense of outsiderness than, say, running for Parliament or starting up a leafleting campaign.

We'll "solve" the graffiti problem when we "solve" the problem of a huge swathe of disaffected, disengaged, angry, poverty-stricken people in our society.

Incidentally, I would be tempted to file an awful lot of the Covid denial stuff in the same box - people who have felt ignored by the system, suddenly being told by The System what to do, and experiencing an instant gut reaction of "fuck you, telling me what to do when I matter nothing to you" which gets rationalised nicely into a neat conspiracy-theory-driven set of behaviours.

I agree with most of that..but we'll never solve
the graffiti 'problem' (not that I see it as such) cos we've been drawing on shit forever and we're not going to stop now. Imo the more we build boring little houses, office blocks, identikit supermarkets and pubs, the more we overcrowd, whitewash and attempt to homogenise, clean up and gentrify areas, the more graffiti we'll see. It's almost as if people equate safety with a lack of originality and personality! I'd much rather see colour and freedom of expression than billboards and adverts.

 

[Indeliblelink]

And plenty of jail time has been served


GG definitely was , but part of it is about just being a vandal - DDS also stands for Doing Damage Son ! Theres a spectrum there - for some its the crime and the rush that appeals

From the horses mouth

Nice to see him mention Steel Injection and Cherish. I was renting a room at his at the time.

 

[existentialist]

I'd not argue with that. Petty vandalism is more likely to be aimed at stuff that's already considered crap. People look at the crappy buses and trains they are provided with, don't see them as having any value, so don't care if they mess them up. For everyone. I think they should be provided with the least crappy trains and buses that is possible. That means, for example, you can see out the window and when you stop at a station you can read the sign. There's lots of other stuff too like decent service and affordable fares, which is also important. But arguing for keeping the vehicles in good condition doesn't preclude arguing for that other stuff too. And the more people you can get using it (and feeling safe on it - whether or ot that feeling of safety results from rational interpretations of things like the presence of graffiti) the better chance you have of things improving generally. No surrender to self-centred kids with spray paints.

It sounds like we both (broadly) agree on the problem. But why not tackle it from both ends? Get tough on antisocial behaviour, BUT AT THE SAME TIME do what is necessary to provide alternatives and remove the motivations/justifications for it?

 

[Gromit]

I know someone from DDS, back in 1992...a care leaver... Everything in his bedsit WAS blammed.

With slogans that would offend them such as
I love Thatcher
Capitalism is the best
Graffiti artists suck
I heart pedantic correction of my misspells.
Etc.

 

[teuchter]

It sounds like we both (broadly) agree on the problem. But why not tackle it from both ends? Get tough on antisocial behaviour, BUT AT THE SAME TIME do what is necessary to provide alternatives and remove the motivations/justifications for it?

Of course do both. I spend a lot more time and energy going on about improving the quality and accessibility of public transport than I do going on about graffiti. I'm not even all that interested in "getting tough" on perpetrators - I think the existing policy of removing it ASAP is the most pragmatic solution. Mainly I just object to the nonsense that's talked about graffiti specifically applied to public transport vehicles and infrastructure being somehow a positive thing. Half of it is just put out there as a wind-up of course.

By the way one thing that has not been brought up in this thread, and something that glamourising the risk and danger ignores, is the effect that it has on people trying to do their job doing stuff like driving trains. Many of whom will have had near misses and a few who have to live with the consequences of being in charge of a vehicle that's killed someone.

 

[bimble]

I'd never thought about it before, why trains are tagged so much more often than private cars, and its a good and depressing point.

 

[existentialist]

Of course do both. I spend a lot more time and energy going on about improving the quality and accessibility of public transport than I do going on about graffiti. I'm not even all that interested in "getting tough" on perpetrators - I think the existing policy of removing it ASAP is the most pragmatic solution. Mainly I just object to the nonsense that's talked about graffiti specifically applied to public transport vehicles and infrastructure being somehow a positive thing. Half of it is just put out there as a wind-up of course.

By the way one thing that has not been brought up in this thread, and something that glamourising the risk and danger ignores, is the effect that it has on people trying to do their job doing stuff like driving trains. Many of whom will have had near misses and a few who have to live with the consequences of being in charge of a vehicle that's killed someone.

Yes, that is an important factor - but perhaps not so easy to get across to a mindset which is already rolling nicely down the "fuck everybody" road. And, of course, it's not just graffiti types that take risks on the railway and end up mutilated or dead, and traumatising the hell out of a whole load of people in the process.

At the risk of sounding a little too political, this stuff is the price we as a society pay for the corners we cut in raising and supporting everyone who is part of that society. I don't think we're all that good at that, and I fear we are still heading in the wrong direction.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I'd never thought about it before, why trains are tagged so much more often than private cars, and its a good and depressing point.

Teuchter’s overthinking it, a bimble tagged on the side of a train not in a massively obtrusive place often gets left alone and spends all day moving around the place for people to see. You tag a car and the owner gets it cleaned off straight away. Also if the owner catches you he may well lump you one, train staff normally won’t.

 

[StoneRoad]

I'd never thought about it before, why trains are tagged so much more often than private cars, and its a good and depressing point.

Because they provide a large, vertical surface for "decoration" - private cars are smaller and usually more curved.
Which is why walls and bridge abutments are also "decorated" by these vandals.

There's a long stretch of wall in Whitehaven that is periodically over-painted, the locals "decorate" it - somehow they seem to agree on themes ... and tend to stay away from other areas. There are some decent murals in the town, as well, and several more were planned ...

 

[maomao]

Teuchter’s overthinking it, a bimble tagged on the side of a train not in a massively obtrusive place often gets left alone and spends all day moving around the place for people to see. You tag a car and the owner gets it cleaned off straight away. Also if the owner catches you he may well lump you one, train staff normally won’t.

Also trains are bigger and flatter. Even a lwb transit wouldn't compare as a canvas.

 

[platinumsage]

Because they provide a large, vertical surface for "decoration" - private cars are smaller and usually more curved.
Which is why walls and bridge abutments are also "decorated" by these vandals.

I've never seen a graffitied lorry or skyscraper, it's always the public stuff.

 

[maomao]

I've never seen a graffitied lorry or skyscraper, it's always the public stuff.

I've seen plenty of graffitied lorries and vans. You're not looking.

Here's some:

The Graffiti Trucks of London — Marc Vallée

The Graffiti Trucks of London Graffiti tuck, London, 2018. Text Dr. Theo Kindynis The origins of graffiti writing in London can arguably be traced to...

marcvallee.co.uk

It's also very common on shop fronts. Most 'skyscrapers' have twenty four hour security.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I've never seen a graffitied lorry or skyscraper, it's always the public stuff.

My Luton van was tagged to fuck, sorry to upset you but it was a Mercedes rather than an Audi.