Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

old routemasters

update on tomorrow's (Sunday 24 July) event at Victoria Coach Station - 21 vehicles now expected, and special service on route 11 (Victoria Coach Station - Aldwych) now confirmed as every 10-15 minutes, not every 30 minutes as previously planned.

090 Hammersmith - Victoria is mainly older coaches, A1 Hammersmith - Victoria is 1980s / 90s buses, 11 Victoria - Aldwych is mainly 1950s / 60s london buses.

page about the coaches here and london bus museum page here

decided yesterday evening i'll aim to get to this and not the thing at fulwell bus garage today.

All timetables subject to usual disclaimers, and the usual reminder that most of the vehicles involved are step entrance...
 
coaches -

ffn446-1.jpg


1951 Leyland / Beadle integral coach, operated by East Kent. (registered as new in 1951, although the engine and running units came from a 1935-ish double decker. There was a fair amount of putting new bodies on old chassis in the early post-war era, Beadle of Dartford took it all a bit further.)

lta729-samuelsons.jpg

1951 Bristol coach, operated by 'Royal Blue'
 
First version of the timetable is now released for the London Bus Museum organised event on London route 37 on Saturday 1 October.

Broadly, 15 minute frequency between Peckham - Putney via current route 37, some additional journeys starting from Hounslow in the morning / back to Hounslow at end of day, and a few extras Peckham - Clapham. Travel on these buses is free. Possible that more extras will be added between now and then.

First journeys about 10 am from all points, last through departures about 4 pm from each end, and all buses finished a bit after 5 pm.

This mainly features the RT generation of buses (the ones before Routemasters) - usual disclaimers about step entrances and that sort of thing apply.

editor - if you want me to do a summary before the event for brixton buzz then do let me know (likewise some photos from the day afterwards)
 
Puddy_Tat said:
First version of the timetable is now released for the London Bus Museum organised event on London route 37 on Saturday 1 October.

Broadly, 15 minute frequency between Peckham - Putney via current route 37, some additional journeys starting from Hounslow in the morning / back to Hounslow at end of day, and a few extras Peckham - Clapham. Travel on these buses is free. Possible that more extras will be added between now and then.

First journeys about 10 am from all points, last through departures about 4 pm from each end, and all buses finished a bit after 5 pm.

This mainly features the RT generation of buses (the ones before Routemasters) - usual disclaimers about step entrances and that sort of thing apply.

editor - if you want me to do a summary before the event for brixton buzz then do let me know (likewise some photos from the day afterwards)
Click to expand...
Please go for it!
 
a few coming events -

Sunday 23 October - Transportfest event at London Bus Museum, Brooklands. More here.

Sunday 20 November - bus running day based on Hendon. Not quite sure who's running it, and no detail of what buses are going to be involved. Looks like about 20 buses all told, though. More info (opens as PDF) here.

Saturday 3 December - Ensignbus running day (both they as operator and the buses involved are fully licensed, so this is NOT a free event, they usually do a day ticket, and as a one-off special service, concessionary passes are usually not valid) - not much detail around yet, and there have apparently been incorrect rumours that it won't be happening this year. So far only a Twitter account here, but they put more on their website nearer the time. Usually centred on Lakeside (Thurrock) shopping centre with routes to Gravesend, Upminster, Brentwood etc.
 
A service using Routemasters has started, running between Waterloo and Piccadilly Circus - £ 5 for an 'all day' ticket (it's not a TFL service, and is classed as a 'tourist' service, so travelcards / oyster and concessionary passes are not accepted.

www.londonerbuses.co.uk

Londoner Buses - See London by heritage bus!

Londoner Buses operates a number of heritage routemasters across the capital city of London.
www.londonerbuses.co.uk www.londonerbuses.co.uk

Not sure that starting round the end of the tourist season is a great idea, so not sure just how long it will last...
 
Puddy_Tat said:
A service using Routemasters has started, running between Waterloo and Piccadilly Circus - £ 5 for an 'all day' ticket (it's not a TFL service, and is classed as a 'tourist' service, so travelcards / oyster and concessionary passes are not accepted.

www.londonerbuses.co.uk

Londoner Buses - See London by heritage bus!

Londoner Buses operates a number of heritage routemasters across the capital city of London.
www.londonerbuses.co.uk www.londonerbuses.co.uk

Not sure that starting round the end of the tourist season is a great idea, so not sure just how long it will last...
Click to expand...
full deets
 
a bit north of london, but there's an event this Sunday 30 October based on Biggleswade (Bedfordshire) with buses every half hour Biggleswade - Sandy - Bedford (Bus station at each end, Market Square bus stop in Sandy)

First departures 1000, last from Bedford at 1500, last from Biggleswade at 1600

more (Farcebook page) here
 
Puddy_Tat said:
a bit north of london, but there's an event this Sunday 30 October based on Biggleswade (Bedfordshire) with buses every half hour Biggleswade - Sandy - Bedford (Bus station at each end, Market Square bus stop in Sandy)

First departures 1000, last from Bedford at 1500, last from Biggleswade at 1600

more (Farcebook page) here
Click to expand...
I read posts like this, and I instantly wonder "how do they do the timetables?"

I ran a minibus thing for my choir a few years ago, and produced this (via Python and Google maps) to tell people where to be and when I'd pick them up. I'm still rather pleased with it.

1666997883138.png
 
existentialist said:
I read posts like this, and I instantly wonder "how do they do the timetables?"
Click to expand...

as in the thought process, or the document, or both?

(and am i allowed to have a minor hmm at use of London Transport typeface for something operating in an area that was BET companies?)

:p

colleague at a bus company a few years back actually did a public flyer for something that was partly in comic fucking sans. i told him he deserved to be haunted by the ghost of frank pick
 
Puddy_Tat said:
as in the thought process, or the document, or both?

(and am i allowed to have a minor hmm at use of London Transport typeface for something operating in an area that was BET companies?)

:p

colleague at a bus company a few years back actually did a public flyer for something that was partly in comic fucking sans. i told him he deserved to be haunted by the ghost of frank pick
Click to expand...
I've no idea what the old timetables round here were like, but (apart from the fact that they require the use of a calendar), the modern ones are HORRIBLE.

As for "how do they do the timetables?", more what they did than how they figured them out. The modern local ones look to have been knocked up in Word :hmm:
 
existentialist said:
As for "how do they do the timetables?", more what they did than how they figured them out. The modern local ones look to have been knocked up in Word :hmm:
Click to expand...

well, since you asked...

traditionally, they would start hand-written and end up typeset to that operator's house style - possibly once for timetable books, once for roadside timetable displays, then there would need to be an extract for the bus crew to work to (the style and terminology would vary, but either a time card / running board with just what that bus is doing, or a duty card with just what that crew is doing), a 'run out sheet' for buses so the garage engineering staff know how many buses are needed, at what times, what order they need to leave the garage in and how many miles each bus is scheduled to do, a signing-on sheet for crews so that the 'output' supervisors knew that crews had arrived for work on time (and would do something if they didn't) then something for the bus station or roadside inspectors to refer to - possibly departure sheets for key locations, or a version of the timetable showing the bus workings and crew duties.

The crew duties would then need fitting in to rotas which again would need to be displayed at the garage for crews' and supervisors' use, and the pay clerk/s would need copies of all this, along with the details of each duty (as in duty 123 is 7 hours 45 pay plus 15 minutes spreadover allowance plus 45 minutes unsocial hours allowance and so on.)

The level of 'typesetting' would vary - some smaller operators were still at the typewriter and duplicator level of tech in to the 1990s.

there's some live timetables / schedules office action in this film clip (an extract from british transport films 'all that mighty heart') from 0.42 to 1.05 (the man drawing diagonal lines is constructing a crew duty schedule on a graph that's got the bus workings on - somewhere, i've got a small amount of schedules graph paper with the horizontal axis being time - when i started, computerised scheduling was still only done at the largest of operators.)

In the current era, much of this is based on electronic data - there's a handful of companies who do software for this (obviously it's a bit niche / specialised) - while these products tend not to be quite as great as the software companies say, the big difference is that one lot of data is used for multiple purposes, and the same data isn't being re-typed (with a risk of errors each time) several times, and (in theory) you just press different buttons to get all the different versions once you've constructed timetable / duty schedule / rota.

And it can all be joined up with the driver pay system - drivers can see their duties for the next few weeks on their smart phones, they can clock on and off automatically at the depot with their smart card or whatever, and the system will know that driver J Smith is on duty 123 today, and know if they have booked on at the right time, the controllers will only get an alert if they don't, rather than having to tick names off a list. (some operators - particularly where drivers aren't handling cash - are going down the path of drivers being able to book on / off remotely via app or text message on duties where they don't bring a bus from or two depot - the merits of this are subject to some debate.)

The tech of course can cause issues - one place I worked, the schedules system and the pay system handled the concept of midnight differently, and in the end we had to make a manual adjustment to any duty that naturally booked on or off duty at exactly midnight, so that they would either finish at 0001 or start at 2359, otherwise it would cock their pay up.

Most of these products can generate printed timetables / departure lists for roadside timetables, although they tend not to be great at producing printable timetables in traditional format, and there are a few specialist firms who do that sort of thing - again, they generally get the data electronically. The smallest of operators will produce something in Excel or Word, though.

There is a standardised file format for bus timetables, which is used to feed in to the government's BODS data set and regional Traveline systems, as well as feeding real time passenger information systems and electronic ticket machines, so again it's all the same base data being used. It's also now done to 'stop level' (as in every single bus stop is in the data - even the 'imaginary' bus stops where there's nothing there to show it's a bus stop but buses will stop there) rather than 'timing point' level where maybe one stop in 10 would be listed. In turn, third party websites (e.g. google maps, bustimes) get and use this data.

In some areas, local councils are involved in producing roadside timetables and / or printed timetables (either for tendered services or across the board) and will (generally) use operators' electronic data to do this rather than start from scratch.

Although in practice it tends to need a bit of checking and arguing (small to medium sized operators may not have the tech skills to handle the software, and the big operators tend to concentrate the people who do at regional offices, and they may not have the detailed local knowledge.) The very smallest operators (particularly the community transport sector) tend to get someone to do the electronic stuff for the - again this may be the local council.

It's fair to say (and perhaps not recognised enough at DFT level) that the requirements on operators to do all the electronic stuff (and have the tech kit on buses) has pushed some small operators out of doing local bus / stage carriage service, when in the past they used to do a school contract and then a few 'market day' bus routes with the same vehicle and driver. As with the (worthwhile) requirement for low floor / accessible buses, the question of funding it all - particularly in rural areas - was never really thought through properly.

Obviously the above is a brief summary...

For one-off heritage bus running day events, most people doing that don't have access to schedules software and those who do mostly probably won't have employer's permission to use it for something outside work, so it tends to be paper and Word / Excel or similar. I've got templates in Excel that are close to what a lot of bus operators' 1950s or 1960s timetable books looked like, for example, and I try to stick as far as I can to the principle of one master file, and just re-format the same data for the various formats it needs printing in.
 
Is it remiss of me to mention we have no need off timetables. There is a bus from ours to Victoria every few minutes, likewise a train to Victoria or Waterloo.
 
hash tag said:
Is it remiss of me to mention we have no need off timetables. There is a bus from ours to Victoria every few minutes, likewise a train to Victoria or Waterloo.
Click to expand...

yes.

even if you can't see it, there will be a timetable, although the public will see it as 'about every X minutes' and the controllers will run it on (attempting to) maintaining an even headway even if that means some buses are technically a few minutes early or late (although controllers have to watch it when drivers are due to change over, rather than having new driver stood waiting and old driver pushing their luck on drivers' hours, or the driver not yet being there when the bus arrives.)

and behind that there's a vehicle schedule and driver duty schedule and rota (the latter two must comply with drivers hours' law and the union agreement is about drivers' hours and breaks etc at that particular company / garage.) and if it's these new fangled electric buses, then the vehicle schedule has to be built round how many miles they can do before needing re-charging (this is a consideration with diesel buses, although they can usually run a full operating day but maybe not stay out all night as well. electric buses don't yet have the same mileage range.)

and if it's got a night service / 24 hour route, then today, it will have a special schedule to deal with it being a 25 hour day (you can't just expect all the night shift drivers to stay out an extra hour, as by the time they have done it, then got back from the other end of the route, many would go over the edge of drivers' hours rules. and some night buses stay out long enough to turn in to the following morning's day buses for a journey or two, so that needs to fit as well.)

all very simple, really...
 
saw the maddest thing at a busstop today - its like an e-reader, stuck on the stop post with buttons to display the timetables and routes... id like to link to it but dont know what it is called - puddy tat?
 
Puddy_Tat said:
There is a standardised file format for bus timetables, which is used to feed in to the government's BODS data set and regional Traveline systems, as well as feeding real time passenger information systems and electronic ticket machines, so again it's all the same base data being used. It's also now done to 'stop level' (as in every single bus stop is in the data - even the 'imaginary' bus stops where there's nothing there to show it's a bus stop but buses will stop there) rather than 'timing point' level where maybe one stop in 10 would be listed. In turn, third party websites (e.g. google maps, bustimes) get and use this data.
Click to expand...
This looks interesting. I might look at implementing that behind my Python frontend.
 
ska invita said:
saw the maddest thing at a busstop today - its like an e-reader, stuck on the stop post with buttons to display the timetables and routes... id like to link to it but dont know what it is called - puddy tat?
Click to expand...

I don't think there's a specific technical term for them - a few firms are doing them now - one example here, another here. it's not very widespread tech yet.

Theory being that the cost of the kit offsets the cost of sending someone round to stick new timetables up now and then, and means you can update a whole swathe of stops in one go, and maybe have alternative display options for 'show current timetable' and 'show timetable that starts next week' - it's always a balance between changing too early / giving notice it's going to change, and question of having the people to do a lot of changes in one go on the day before. i was one of five people who did two days out and about thursday and friday using traditional methods for a patch where a lot of bus services are changing this weekend.
 
Puddy_Tat said:
I don't think there's a specific technical term for them - a few firms are doing them now - one example here, another here. it's not very widespread tech yet.

Theory being that the cost of the kit offsets the cost of sending someone round to stick new timetables up now and then, and means you can update a whole swathe of stops in one go, and maybe have alternative display options for 'show current timetable' and 'show timetable that starts next week' - it's always a balance between changing too early / giving notice it's going to change, and question of having the people to do a lot of changes in one go on the day before. i was one of five people who did two days out and about thursday and friday using traditional methods for a patch where a lot of bus services are changing this weekend.
Click to expand...

its pretty cool, but will it get smashed, graffed, covered in stickers etc

*also rode on a new bus today that had a sunroof!! + headrests, laminate flooring, and usb charge points
(63 honor oak)
 
Last edited:
ska invita said:
its pretty cool, but will it get smashed, graffed, covered in stickers etc
Click to expand...

the ongoing maintenance costs are possibly against it as well

ska invita said:
*also rode on a new bus today that had a sunroof!! + headrests, laminate flooring, and usb charge points
Click to expand...

:)

route 63?

some of the buses in reading have had high back seats and usb points and wi-fi for some time - these buses started to appear in 2018

img_46-1_30.jpg


(more here)
 
Puddy_Tat said:
the ongoing maintenance costs are possibly against it as well



:)

route 63?

some of the buses in reading have had high back seats and usb points and wi-fi for some time - these buses started to appear in 2018

img_46-1_30.jpg


(more here)
Click to expand...
yeah 63! even better than that one, every seat has a STOP button, theres nice digital display about stops, the speakers are excellent i noticed and headrests genuinely comfortable. would ride again
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

tim
Betwixtmas routemaster and steampumping engine bonanza.
Replies
3
Views
135
Bahnhof Strasse
Bahnhof Strasse
HeAthen
Car Insurance - older new driver
2
Replies
36
Views
530
HeAthen
HeAthen
editor
Turn an old eReader into an handy train information screen for the house
Replies
4
Views
340
Puddy_Tat
Puddy_Tat
S
RT Fleet running through Barking, father of Routemaster why is it less well known
Replies
2
Views
518
Puddy_Tat
Puddy_Tat
davesgcr
RIP the "old" Woolwich Ferries
Replies
4
Views
661
Smangus
Smangus
Back
Top Bottom