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Old fogey opinions on modern popular music amnesty

I read this after listening to six different versions of the folk standard Hares on the Mountain. This version by Radie Peat & Daragh Lynch is much the same as the Shirley Collins and Davy Graham version here. If you wrote them down there wouldn't be much difference. Except all the little subtleties regarding how the singer and guitarist approach the music. So I think that's a formal way of looking at it and there's more to it than that. Even then with a formal "notes and beats" approach, I think you might be surprised by how large the possibilities are.
I've been meaning to come back to the thread, just not had the energy and headspace.
I dont think I've made myself clear -will have another go.

Of course there will be new music, there always will be, with new variations and "possibilities" (though from a theoretical point of view the degree of novelty is marginal - variations on what has gone before rather than genuine novelty)

My key point is this: if you are 80 years old now you will have lived through the creation of Rock and all its subgenres, Funk & Soul and all its subgenres, Rap and all its subgenres, EDM and all its subgenres, etc. etc. etc. The shock of the new was exhilarating. The next 80 years wont have that degree of innovation < I dont think think thats an opinion, that can be understood through looking at material history and the drivers of that history.

The last century has thrown up the most incredible technological innovations:
take for example the humble high quality microphone - this allowed for crooning which was impossible before!
This relationship between technology and music is totally symbiotic.

The distortion pedal created punk. The microchip! I cant be bothered to list everything that has happened but you get the idea.
Here's someones list in fact.


The degree of technological innovation of the last 100 years is unique in human history, and it cannot be replicated forever...in fact it is fast running out of steam by comparison to what has gone just before. The most recent innovation has just been computing power, which makes all that preceded affordable and can fit on a computer making hardware unnecessary. This democratises music but doesn't add to the sonic possibilities (actually there have been a few new virtual instruments that have added a few new bass patches and the like, but its a micro-change on earlier synths and nothing compared to the innovation of the electric guitar say).

But technology isn't the only driver in music. I can think of 3 main drivers, 1. Technology, 2. Music theory 3. socio-cultural forces.
From what I can tell 1+2 are basically done.

1. Still some tinkering to be done with tech, but not on a scale anywhere near comparable to the last century.

2. Theory has been mined, leading to noise and discordance as new boundaries, both old hat now. I see mumble rap and rapping out of time as another (slightly desperate) way of trying to innovate/variate in territory that's already so well worn and explored.

3. is never done, so that still leaves a lot of room for development of "message" and culture around listening to music (communally or privately). Culture is the most interesting bit to me, and that's where tradition comes in too. The culture of the dancefloor for example <that's down to people hearing the music and our attitudes more than the musicians/producers.

My point boils down to lowering expectations of future shocks of the new and endless novelty. It just can't be anywhere on the scale of what has just happened the last hundred years. I count myself lucky to have lived through some of it
 
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That's a good point ska invita and I see what you mean. Music hasn't progressed much in the last 20 or even 30 years. Old fogeys haven't that much to complain about annoyingly apart from ranting about autotune.

That said I'm not bothered if there are no new sounds deriving from new tech. I'm looking for more primitive music anyway, and there's plenty about.
 
That's a good point ska invita and I see what you mean. Music hasn't progressed much in the last 20 or even 30 years. Old fogeys haven't that much to complain about annoyingly apart from ranting about autotune.

That said I'm not bothered if there are no new sounds deriving from new tech. I'm looking for more primitive music anyway, and there's plenty about.
re autotune, thats a good example of a new piece of technology (readily available as a plug in) and how a new bit of kit can add change to the musical landscape

ive been worn down on autotune, hated it at first, but after (20?) years of its use its kind of impressive how many producers/vocalists have stuck with it and created a tradition and aesthetic out of it
There were some big stadium concerts in London last week from Nigerian popstar WizKid, supposedly they stuck that robotic autotune live on his voice during the show !
 
incidentally i got to thinking about all this reading Simon Reynolds Retromania book
Official blurb: The first book to make sense of 21st Century pop, Retromania explores rock's nostalgia industry of revivals, reissues, reunions and remakes, and argues that there has never before been a culture so obsessed with its own immediate past. Pulling together parallel threads from music, fashion, art, and new media, Simon Reynolds confronts a central paradox of our era: from iPods to YouTube, we're empowered by mind-blowing technology, but too often it's used as a time machine or as a tool to shuffle and rearrange music from yesterday.We live in the digital future but we're mesmerized by our analogue past.
where he moans that music and punters tastes has got too backward looking....<<< you can see where he's coming from, but I think the case in that book is 100% wrong, basically for the reasons i give above. The question is where do you go from there....
 
The distortion pedal created punk.
I can't let this go!

I agree that technology is huge in creating new music. But this specific example is totally wrong. distortion pedals are much more associated with heavy metal; punk guitar is about plugging direct into cheap amplifier whatever it sounds like, not about using pedals to get a sound.

Im not saying noone ever used a distortion pedal, but it really isn't associated with the sound of punk at all, let alone being a factor in creating it. The actual sound of punk was really fairly derivative, it wasn't exactly sonicaly revolutionary.

 
I can't let this go!

I agree that technology is huge in creating new music. But this specific example is totally wrong. distortion pedals are much more associated with heavy metal; punk guitar is about plugging direct into cheap amplifier whatever it sounds like, not about using pedals to get a sound.


yeh i've never heard of steve jones using a distortion pedal, for example. never seen a mention of it in either books on the sex pistols or in jones' autobiography where he speaks of nicking guitars and amps but never a word about pedals.
 
incidentally i got to thinking about all this reading Simon Reynolds Retromania book

where he moans that music and punters tastes has got too backward looking....<<< you can see where he's coming from, but I think the case in that book is 100% wrong, basically for the reasons i give above. The question is where do you go from there....
Music did evolve at an astonishing rate from the 50s to the 90s. There were points where you could discover a sound and six months later it's old hat, a year later no-one is doing it any more and six months after that it's considered old skool. There was a rush towards the new that left whole genres abandoned a few years after they were the hot new thing.

For people living in that period it must've seemed normal, natural that music constantly moved forward at that rate.

I don't think it's surprising or a bad thing, now the internet means everyone can access almost everything that's ever been recorded, that people have paused to look around and recreate, reimagine, recombine and repurpose sounds from the past. And maybe some new things will emerge from that.
 
The tune coming in at 26.00 s a total banger and the audience seem to be enjoying themselves and having a proper dance, which is often a good yardstick to judge the quality of a boiler room set

Or the quality of the drugs they’re on.
 
Shout out to this young band from the south coast of NSW.
Singer/Songwriter/Drummer Buzz Clatworthy is 17 here.
I'm very impressed by this band. The future's bright.
 
There are lots of excellent new bands out there. As said above you just have to look for them.
It is the ability to search new music and bands out that has thankfully become easier.
 
yeh i've never heard of steve jones using a distortion pedal, for example. never seen a mention of it in either books on the sex pistols or in jones' autobiography where he speaks of nicking guitars and amps but never a word about pedals.
MXR phase 45 pedal on Anarchy in the UK according to equipboard. Which is a pedal but not a distortion pedal. Also, only using it on one song is a bit 'exception proving the rule'.
 
There are lots of excellent new bands out there. As said above you just have to look for them.
It is the ability to search new music and bands out that has thankfully become easier.
I'm still none the wiser where/how to look. I've long fallen out of favour with 6 music and Spotify just serves up algorithm produced dross. Shazaming interesting stuff on soundtracks is my entry point these days.
 
I'm still none the wiser where/how to look. I've long fallen out of favour with 6 music and Spotify just serves up algorithm produced dross. Shazaming interesting stuff on soundtracks is my entry point these days.
vaguely what genres of music do you like to listen to most?
 
vaguely what genres of music do you like to listen to most?
I don't really have genres I listen to anymore. I mean I listen to Jungle and Drum n Bass, Dub but I only really like stuff like King Tubby and dub from that era. Beyond that I think more in terms of bands and producer names. Sleaford Mods and Baxter Dury get fairly regular airings, Holy Fuck, Little Dragon, Jamie XX to name a few.
 
I'm still none the wiser where/how to look. I've long fallen out of favour with 6 music and Spotify just serves up algorithm produced dross. Shazaming interesting stuff on soundtracks is my entry point these days.

Try listening to some of the album recommendations on here. This list might also be useful.
 
I don't really have genres I listen to anymore. I mean I listen to Jungle and Drum n Bass, Dub but I only really like stuff like King Tubby and dub from that era. Beyond that I think more in terms of bands and producer names. Sleaford Mods and Baxter Dury get fairly regular airings, Holy Fuck, Little Dragon, Jamie XX to name a few.
For DnB Im currently mainly listneing to

A good radio show is such a good way of finding new music...
I reckon youd like
of course depends on the show, but i think it might match your tastes more often than not
 
For DnB Im currently mainly listneing to

A good radio show is such a good way of finding new music...
I reckon youd like
of course depends on the show, but i think it might match your tastes more often than not
Cheers, I'll give these a listen. It will be nice to heat some different radio stations other than BBC 6. I haven't listened to it at any great length for a few years now. I was really struck just how nostalgic obsessed it is. So much of their content is along the lines 'do you remember when the hacienda was still going?'

By the way I really enjoyed some of the more recent jungle tunes you posted on the jungle thread :oldthumbsup:
 
I've been meaning to come back to the thread, just not had the energy and headspace.
I dont think I've made myself clear -will have another go.

Of course there will be new music, there always will be, with new variations and "possibilities" (though from a theoretical point of view the degree of novelty is marginal - variations on what has gone before rather than genuine novelty)

My key point is this: if you are 80 years old now you will have lived through the creation of Rock and all its subgenres, Funk & Soul and all its subgenres, Rap and all its subgenres, EDM and all its subgenres, etc. etc. etc. The shock of the new was exhilarating. The next 80 years wont have that degree of innovation < I dont think think thats an opinion, that can be understood through looking at material history and the drivers of that history.

The last century has thrown up the most incredible technological innovations:
take for example the humble high quality microphone - this allowed for crooning which was impossible before!
This relationship between technology and music is totally symbiotic.

The distortion pedal created punk. The microchip! I cant be bothered to list everything that has happened but you get the idea.
Here's someones list in fact.


The degree of technological innovation of the last 100 years is unique in human history, and it cannot be replicated forever...in fact it is fast running out of steam by comparison to what has gone just before. The most recent innovation has just been computing power, which makes all that preceded affordable and can fit on a computer making hardware unnecessary. This democratises music but doesn't add to the sonic possibilities (actually there have been a few new virtual instruments that have added a few new bass patches and the like, but its a micro-change on earlier synths and nothing compared to the innovation of the electric guitar say).

But technology isn't the only driver in music. I can think of 3 main drivers, 1. Technology, 2. Music theory 3. socio-cultural forces.
From what I can tell 1+2 are basically done.

1. Still some tinkering to be done with tech, but not on a scale anywhere near comparable to the last century.

2. Theory has been mined, leading to noise and discordance as new boundaries, both old hat now. I see mumble rap and rapping out of time as another (slightly desperate) way of trying to innovate/variate in territory that's already so well worn and explored.

3. is never done, so that still leaves a lot of room for development of "message" and culture around listening to music (communally or privately). Culture is the most interesting bit to me, and that's where tradition comes in too. The culture of the dancefloor for example <that's down to people hearing the music and our attitudes more than the musicians/producers.

My point boils down to lowering expectations of future shocks of the new and endless novelty. It just can't be anywhere on the scale of what has just happened the last hundred years. I count myself lucky to have lived through some of it
Interstesting but the major influences on modern music are the cutural phenomenons - Jazz, Blues, Punk - no technical advances at all, they picked up the instrumentation left by the last popular wave, and changed what they did with it - "noise and discordance as new boundaries" - the Atonal shit of the mainly Central and Eastern European composers used what was neccessary for their aundiences ears to produced a discordant affect - these things are cyclic - there can be few fixed "always good sounds" as people, fashions - more important than popular views admit - change. If tech is really vital and "new"sound was the key, Roland and crew would not have spent their time covering their synths in presets - I used to live in the flat of a guy who "created" sound "libraries" for them. Everyone may have cheaper access to the tool set, but most still build simple, predictable tosh and looks/sounds a lot like what was made using stone axes to cut the timber or bone for their flutes ( Earliest music instruments found 42-43 k years old, and all synths will have at least 5 flute presets - plus ca change, n'est pas? )
 

Glass Animals became the biggest British band in the world​


who?
View attachment 307772
Well that's pretty bland to my old man ears.

I don't share your pessimism that things are just going to stay pretty much as they are. It's on the edges and the underground where things start to pop up. And there's still very new sounding noises and styles that will surely offend the old ... and probably the young as well.

I do quite like the extremes and I've not heard these sorts of screeches used like this apart from the last couple of years. Hardcore is the way forward...



Then there's scenes that we don't hear much of because they're not local. Brazilian funk is very much treading its own path. There'll be surely lots of localised things going on that ain't coming to our attention.



I'm particularly fond of it when it starts to go over 180



Just wait 'til AI starts doing it's own interpretation of donk. You'll be sorry you ever craved novelty.
 
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