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odessa massacre

butchersapron said:
Odd to get people pretending to be be Ukrainian and Belarusian on the same thread. Can we get any more? Any fake moldovans out there? Letts?
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i'm a Moldovan, and so is my wife. ok, so i couldn't find it on a map, couldn't tell you one fact about Moldova (can we just check that Moldova is actually a place, and not one of butchersapron's feindish tricks..?), or tell you what language was spoken then let alone speak it - but damn it, i'm a Moldovan, i a know shit, and none of you brainwashed imperialist running dogs who have studied it, been there, lived there can possibly match my knowledge.

yours,

Vladi ...err, i mean KebabTsar.
 
DairyQueen said:
I think statistical information is just one, important part. It is easy to be too dismissive of Soviet data, in many respects it may be as 'falsified' as a lot of western data albeit for different reasons. If you have any reading lists from your uni days, feel free to post them up. Would be interested to know the reading material.
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I'm sure other nations falsify data, but I've never studied it so I don't know. I have spent weeks picking through claims and counterclaims of death toll for the Ukrainian famine, and trying to track one Kazakh nomadic tribe that self identified as Kipchaks (which is questionable, but that's another issue) and can state with absolute certainty that soviet data (particularly census data) is very problematic :)

It was an MA so there was no reading list as such- I'd bounce in to see my supervisor all fired up by something I'd read, and he'd suggest another 20 books that were related, or challenged my thinking. It's a full time job following all the trails of breadcrumbs. And the critical thing is to read everything, but read it critically. So I have read the black book of soviet communism, and Anne Applebaum, and Konrad Kellen, and Dolot, and Burdzhalov, and the Webbs....You know lot of it's got an agenda, but there is useful stuff in there, if you can find it. (Sometimes it's good just to read the extremes and have a giggle.) That's the good thing about formal study, you aren't allowed to get away with just reading stuff that confirms your own prejudices.

Anyway, reading wise, this looks an interesting list: http://www.indiana.edu/~reeiweb/graduate/readingList.shtml I haven't read some of the more recent stuff, or the stuff about sex, but there is a pretty good cross section IMO
 
Manter said:
I'm sure other nations falsify data, but I've never studied it so I don't know. I have spent weeks picking through claims and counterclaims of death toll for the Ukrainian famine, and trying to track one Kazakh nomadic tribe that self identified as Kipchaks (which is questionable, but that's another issue) and can state with absolute certainty that soviet data (particularly census data) is very problematic :)

It was an MA so there was no reading list as such- I'd bounce in to see my supervisor all fired up by something I'd read, and he'd suggest another 20 books that were related, or challenged my thinking. It's a full time job following all the trails of breadcrumbs. And the critical thing is to read everything, but read it critically. So I have read the black book of soviet communism, and Anne Applebaum, and Konrad Kellen, and Dolot, and Burdzhalov, and the Webbs....You know lot of it's got an agenda, but there is useful stuff in there, if you can find it. (Sometimes it's good just to read the extremes and have a giggle.) That's the good thing about formal study, you aren't allowed to get away with just reading stuff that confirms your own prejudices.

Anyway, reading wise, this looks an interesting list: http://www.indiana.edu/~reeiweb/graduate/readingList.shtml I haven't read some of the more recent stuff, or the stuff about sex, but there is a pretty good cross section IMO
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There are no 'claims and counterclaims' about the 1932-33 Soviet famine, a group of western countries and Ukrainians believe it was an act of genocide. Soviet data is reasonably informative (they did not, however, have a census at a crucial point).

What I mean is that a lot of economic and demographic data might be poor not because of some apparatchik falsifying data but due to criminal activity (e.g., future oligarchs stealing from the production lines - which they openly boast of now) or genuine beliefs at the time (e.g., I am not XXXX nationality but am Soviet). For these reasons, a lot of data might be unreliable in the West (e.g., economic data in countries with large black market activity).
 
Details of the odessa tradegy can be seen on the following websites veterans today, global research, stop nato,live leak or google "odessa massacre"
Then it will become obvious the scale of the corporate media cover up which as mentioned nothing really other than it was an accident which got out of hand because of the pro federalists
 
we can see israeli oligarcs have been given high positions in the east of ukraine by the new junta.
Historicly many people now see the whole of ww2 as one huge zionist conspricy
 
DairyQueen said:
There are no 'claims and counterclaims' about the 1932-33 Soviet famine, a group of western countries and Ukrainians believe it was an act of genocide. Soviet data is reasonably informative (they did not, however, have a census at a crucial point).

What I mean is that a lot of economic and demographic data might be poor not because of some apparatchik falsifying data but due to criminal activity (e.g., future oligarchs stealing from the production lines - which they openly boast of now) or genuine beliefs at the time (e.g., I am not XXXX nationality but am Soviet). For these reasons, a lot of data might be unreliable in the West (e.g., economic data in countries with large black market activity).
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It's very contentious. From how many died, to what they died of (starvation, disease, purge), whether it was deliberately created, a deliberate escalation of a natural phenomenon or an unfortunate consequence of a series of events, natural, economic or political. Then, if you accept it was either deliberately caused or deliberately worsened, why?- suppression of a brand of nationalism that threatened Stalin? Suppression of Kulaks as a class? If the latter was it aimed particularly at Ukraine because they had more? Or was it pretty even handed and they make more of it than other areas? (There were famines and outbreaks to disease in other agricultural areas at the same time.). Why did so many in the west deny it was happening? And get Pulitzers for doing so? To try and get to the bottom of it you need to plough through policy, demographic and social data, weather reports, witness testimonies, photographs, all sorts. Which are faked by both sides, adding to the complication.

There is not yet a single agreed narrative among either Western Historians nor Ukranians, nor Left wing historians- it's still very, very hotly debated.

E2a Conquest's Harvest of Sorrow is a good book on the Ukrainian famine. Not withstanding the fact he is on the right, has been demonised for eg supporting the Vietnam war, and is affiliated to a university department part funded by a Chicago Based Ukrainian activist group* it's still serious and well researched. It's a good place to start before you get into contemporary sources or people like Dolot (Ukrainian famine/genocide, the holodomor, was deliberate a and an attempt to wipe out Ukrainians) or Tottle (was a small scale hunger caused by chaotic soviet command planning and the agenda of those who want to sensationalise it is more interesting)

*iirc he only became involved with the Ukrainian Research Institute *after* the publication of Harvest of Sorrow.
 
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classicdish said:
I thought this thread was going to be a debate/argument about who the people in Odessa with the red armbands & pro-russia ribbons really were, whether a bunch of transnistrians had been arrested/let go, which side (if any) the local police were on, the real number of people killed (and how they died) and various other claims/counter-claims.
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yes it should be its been diverted and its important to get the information out.
check out links on veterans today global research to see details
 
to summarise the whole thing seems to have been organised at the highest levels. The junta had infiltrated the odessa police to high levels including the boss of the police.
Almost all the scum came from out of town mostly from right sector forward headquarters in dniproprotrosk hardened maidan veterans many of the ones trained in poland late last year
a false flag op was carried out before with fash dressed as anti fash (they have been doing this rather a lot over the last few weeks)
photos can be seen of fash still wearing st george ribbons having forgot to take them off
there biggest mistake seems to be filming the crimes that they did (these beasts are not smartest of cunts) Over the coming days more evidence will be coming to light and hopefully this terrible will open the eyes of the world to what is really going on
 
Manter said:
It's very contentious. From how many died, to what they died of (starvation, disease, purge), whether it was deliberately created, a deliberate escalation of a natural phenomenon or an unfortunate consequence of a series of events, natural, economic or political. Then, if you accept it was either deliberately caused or deliberately worsened, why?- suppression of a brand of nationalism that threatened Stalin? Suppression of Kulaks as a class? If the latter was it aimed particularly at Ukraine because they had more? Or was it pretty even handed and they make more of it than other areas? (There were famines and outbreaks to disease in other agricultural areas at the same time.). Why did so many in the west deny it was happening? And get Pulitzers for doing so? To try and get to the bottom of it you need to plough through policy, demographic and social data, weather reports, witness testimonies, photographs, all sorts. Which are faked by both sides, adding to the complication.

There is not yet a single agreed narrative among either Western Historians nor Ukranians, nor Left wing historians- it's still very, very hotly debated.

E2a Conquest's Harvest of Sorrow is a good book on the Ukrainian famine. Not withstanding the fact he is on the right, has been demonised for eg supporting the Vietnam war, and is affiliated to a university department part funded by a Chicago Based Ukrainian activist group* it's still serious and well researched. It's a good place to start before you get into contemporary sources or people like Dolot (Ukrainian famine/genocide, the holodomor, was deliberate a and an attempt to wipe out Ukrainians) or Tottle (was a small scale hunger caused by chaotic soviet command planning and the agenda of those who want to sensationalise it is more interesting)

*iirc he only became involved with the Ukrainian Research Institute *after* the publication of Harvest of Sorrow.
Click to expand...
 
The main point i was making is that the famine took place all over the central part of the soviet unoin not just in the ukraine the russians were just as much victims as the ukrainians were. The real pigs hide behind history but time is now telling and the truth is coming out
 
Manter said:
It's all a complete pickle. Add falsified census data to the list- most of the historical information is so corrupted it gives you a headache to try and unpick it. Somebody needs to go through all the regional party archives, to try and build up a complete picture, but that would involve levels of study- and access- that I just don't think are possible at the moment. And I don't know, but I suspect that quite a lot of data will have been destroyed.
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I've never read their stuff, but haven't R. W. Davies and others been doing just that for years? Their multi-volume studies of Soviet industrialisation, and there's one that covers collectivisation and the famine years.
 
spartacuslove said:
The main point i was making is that the famine took place all over the central part of the soviet unoin not just in the ukraine the russians were just as much victims as the ukrainians were. The real pigs hide behind history but time is now telling and the truth is coming out
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Name the pigs - if you dare.
 
Manter said:
There is not yet a single agreed narrative among either Western Historians nor Ukranians, nor Left wing historians- it's still very, very hotly debated.
Click to expand...

I thought the Soviets actually, in the end, were pretty open about what had happened. Funnily enough, I do not find it that sensitive an issue in Russia or amongst Russians (there have been many famines in Russia's history).
 
It's all so drearily predictable. Always with the Joos. Why not the Welsh or the Saami people for a change? :D
 
scalyboy said:
Tell us more about how Jimmy Savile fits into all this
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well the fact that such a high profile figure in the brit establishment got a way with what he did is probably the same reason that those beasts in odessa have so far got away with what they did.
paedohiles are running the show
 
seventh bullet said:
I've never read their stuff, but haven't R. W. Davies and others been doing just that for years? Their multi-volume studies of Soviet industrialisation, and there's one that covers collectivisation and the famine years.
Click to expand...
I haven't read it either so can't comment on what they've been working on, sorry. No idea what sources they have or haven't used. I've only read Davies' history of the collective farm, which was v interesting
 
If I was of a more conspiratorial mind, I'd wonder whether this geezer is a pro-Kiev person talking shite in order to discredit antiMaidan supporters :eek::hmm: Knights of Malta - gertcha.
 
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