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odessa massacre

spartacuslove said:
the oppression by polish austrian goverments and zionists over ruthenian people has been going on for a long time. You may a done some silly uni course idiot chops but is doesnt sound to me like you have spent much time in the ukraine. But no time forpetty insults. The point being tommorow we commemerate the dead of the second world war and the defeat of the fascists.
While unbeliveably the fash are on the march again all over europe.
In odessa unspeakable things have just taken place.
Its time to make a stand.
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Oppression by zionists you say? How does that work then?
 
Manter said:
All people murdered by Stalin were right wing enemies of the state? Not what I studied. Not even what most rabidly communist Russians think these days. 'Regretable excesses' is I believe the current terminology.

The history of Ukrainian language and culture is complex. For example, in recent history, there was Russification under Lenin, full scale suppression under Stalin with IIRC 2 periods of ukrainianisation when he needed support during WW2, a thaw under Krushchev's early administration, positive promotion of the development of Ukrainian in the early Breshnev period, then a long decline and suppression of the language again that only let up under glasnost in 1985 ish. So
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How does the concept of Soviet citizen fit into this?
 
DairyQueen said:
Manter - one problem I have is that the communist states policy on nationalism actually proved somewhat prophetic. The general Soviet (and Yugoslav) doctrine was "It may well be shit, but if we allow nationalism to take root, we will be in a perpetual state of war". While it might be argued that the Balkans is finally getting some closure, the area (and Bosnia in particular) is still highly fragmented. For Ukraine, a policy of Russian ostracism is almost suicidal considering its borders, etc.
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yes, agree. At one point the concept of international proletarian solidarity was prevalent- in fact its one of the founding principles of Marxism, that nation states were a imperialist concept dreamt up by the ruling classes on the principle of divide and rule. Class unity was more important than 'national' identity, and people's tendency to pick a date when their preferred nationality was in the ascendancy and try and impose that historic structure on their neighbours was seen as very dangerous*.

Which is one of the reasons Soviet nationalities policy is so interesting- it vacillated between attempting (with varying degrees of ruthlessness) to suppress all nationalist sentiment, to encouraging it and providing funding and degrees of independence to the member states. There are loads of themes including the movement of peoples across the Soviet union to dilute or reinforce national identities, moving internal borders to control access to wealth,infrastructure etc, forced settlement of nomadic people, settlement of previously uninhabited areas and so on.

* correctly- just look at the Caucasus. The Armenians seem to think they should rule most of it on the basis of a historical empire around the beginning of the spread of Christianity, every tiny tribe is seceding to produce (largely unviable) nation states, all of whom have to be a client state of someone to survive, be it Russia or Azerbaijan…. its a real mess. But it also suggests that suppressing nationalism because its dangerous doesn't make it go away. Or maybe to was the inconsistency of the suppression that meant it didn't die out completely. Dunno. Maybe I need to go any do another silly little university course
 
ukrainian nationalism stinks. stephen bandera carried out the worst crimes in the 20th century.
That guy killed and slaughtered half the civilian population of lvov. They made up two regiments in the nazi ss they killed their own people.And guess what these beasts in odessa have just done the same to their own people.
disgusting horrible nationalism and false natonalism and who is behind it but the catholic church just like in croatia these beasts are the pits.
However even in lviv these people are a very small minority who have been put on a pedestal by the neocons
 
Manter said:
yes, agree. At one point the concept of international proletarian solidarity was prevalent- in fact its one of the founding principles of Marxism, that nation states were a imperialist concept dreamt up by the ruling classes on the principle of divide and rule. Class unity was more important than 'national' identity, and people's tendency to pick a date when their preferred nationality was in the ascendancy and try and impose that historic structure on their neighbours was seen as very dangerous*.

Which is one of the reasons Soviet nationalities policy is so interesting- it vacillated between attempting (with varying degrees of ruthlessness) to suppress all nationalist sentiment, to encouraging it and providing funding and degrees of independence to the member states. There are loads of themes including the movement of peoples across the Soviet union to dilute or reinforce national identities, moving internal borders to control access to wealth,infrastructure etc, forced settlement of nomadic people, settlement of previously uninhabited areas and so on.

* correctly- just look at the Caucasus. The Armenians seem to think they should rule most of it on the basis of a historical empire around the beginning of the spread of Christianity, every tiny tribe is seceding to produce (largely unviable) nation states, all of whom have to be a client state of someone to survive, be it Russia or Azerbaijan…. its a real mess. But it also suggests that suppressing nationalism because its dangerous doesn't make it go away. Or maybe to was the inconsistency of the suppression that meant it didn't die out completely. Dunno. Maybe I need to go any do another silly little university course
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DairyQueen said:
How does the concept of Soviet citizen fit into this?
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It was a Khrushchev era policy- diverse nationalities, united common characteristics. I think it was a development of a theme in the secret speech, but tbh it was a long time ago and I'm a bit wobbly on which theory developed out of what now! It aimed to balance the need to be united in a federal union, with a recognition of 'national' differences, so development in particular areas was allowed, but in a controlled manner. You could be a proud soviet citizen who could recite Georgian songs and get misty eyed about the exploits of the Svaneti tribesmen, for example, but you knew you were a soviet citizen first and foremost. Your 'nationality' was local colour, if you like.

How well the concept was embedded and what it meant in reality later depended on local administration. In Ukraine for example, Shcherbytsky was a Russifier, and did his very best to stamp out signs of overt nationalism, including the use of Ukrainian in any official capacity. Whereas the approach in Georgia was much more liberal, for example.

incidentally, all of this is contentious- Each nationality/tribe/area has its own narrative of suppression, oppression and dominance, plus the modern macro politics to do with the EU, IMF, nato membership, oil and gas etc etc adds layers of obfuscation. Everyone has an agenda :)
 
The catholic church is a military organisation just like the freemasons or the knights of malta they have been very active in west ukraine just like they were in the solidarity movement in poland.
They are also very active in childrens homes abit like the fremasons
 
Yes. I cannot find any translated works of major Russian/Soviet ethnography... the difficulty in getting any of Lev Gumilev's work on Russia is a pretty shocking,
 
DairyQueen said:
Yes. I cannot find any translated works of major Russian/Soviet ethnography... the difficulty in getting any of Lev Gumilev's work on Russia is a pretty shocking,
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It's all a complete pickle. Add falsified census data to the list- most of the historical information is so corrupted it gives you a headache to try and unpick it. Somebody needs to go through all the regional party archives, to try and build up a complete picture, but that would involve levels of study- and access- that I just don't think are possible at the moment. And I don't know, but I suspect that quite a lot of data will have been destroyed.
 
blimey, its gone midnight. I have a (partly imaginary :D) child to wrangle in the morning- sorry, just starting to get interesting despite a rather silly OP DairyQueen
 
spartacuslove said:
The catholic church is a military organisation just like the freemasons or the knights of malta they have been very active in west ukraine just like they were in the solidarity movement in poland.
They are also very active in childrens homes abit like the fremasons
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I think that gives us a clue how much credibility to give to you.
 
Manter said:
It's all a complete pickle. Add falsified census data to the list- most of the historical information is so corrupted it gives you a headache to try and unpick it. Somebody needs to go through all the regional party archives, to try and build up a complete picture, but that would involve levels of study- and access- that I just don't think are possible at the moment. And I don't know, but I suspect that quite a lot of data will have been destroyed.
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I think statistical information is just one, important part. It is easy to be too dismissive of Soviet data, in many respects it may be as 'falsified' as a lot of western data albeit for different reasons. If you have any reading lists from your uni days, feel free to post them up. Would be interested to know the reading material.
 
spartacuslove said:
The catholic church is a military organisation just like the freemasons or the knights of malta they have been very active in west ukraine just like they were in the solidarity movement in poland.
They are also very active in childrens homes abit like the fremasons
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are there lizards involved as well? if not i'm not fucking interested - they're the ones really pulling the strings
 
Nationlism makes a poor subsitute for relegion or ethnicity if you really really want to plumb the depths of mans behaviour you just have to work a bit harder at it:(

Given the regions history really corrupt goverments dodgy strongmen and surplus of weaponary bad things are going to happen. Full on of neo nazis are a tiny miniority in functioning countries they only really come out to play if shit is already fucked up:(.
Sort of like a reverse canary in a coalmine things are really shit but hey we are to start shovling it at the fan:(
 
A Cockney here! Apparently, we'll be extinct in a decade or so,
so cherish me while you can.
 
I thought this thread was going to be a debate/argument about who the people in Odessa with the red armbands & pro-russia ribbons really were, whether a bunch of transnistrians had been arrested/let go, which side (if any) the local police were on, the real number of people killed (and how they died) and various other claims/counter-claims.
 
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