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Occupy Wall Street

teqniq said:
Also it's been reported that some officer(s) have been suspended as a consequence of their actions re: use of pepper spray, something that would have been a great deal harder to prove without the presence of plenty of people with cameraphones etc.
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When cameraphones first came out I was slightly annoyed by them. After seeing the various uses they've been put to, I think I've changed my mind.
 
Garek said:
And that is changing the police response how? They don't exactly seem to be becoming shrinking violets because their actions are now broadcast.

We all know they are thugs. We all know they are violent. We've known that for a lot longer than the time youtube has been around. This changes nothing.
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Id never rule out violence, especially in terms of personal self defence - but that is up to those doing the demonstrating, not for anyone sat on a bulletin board to demand.

My thoughts for what the are worth, is that a long campaign of non-violent civil disobedience and direct action is far more likely to be successful if it holds out against using violence at all, or for as long as physically possible. The problems with violence are that you alienate those people who are 'sat on the fence' about what you are demonstrating for and you give the politicians the easiest of excuses for whatever bully boy behaviour they wish to deploy. The media will rubbish you, the government will rubbish you, other people will rubbish you and you'll end up with zero support and a load of broken bones for your trouble.

A successful mass movement has to take people with it. Many non-participants are skeptical because they see a movement without any aims beyond slogans - if you throw in violent action then you look physically and intellectually bankrupt. Non-violent resistance in the face of police brutality is a brave move for anyone and i understand why not all people are capable of, or want to take this option, but what it does do is to lay bare the mechanations of the state and its enforcers for everyone to see. Those capable of it should be applauded, not denigrated for an apparent lack of courage.

The lack of violence #occupy has had so far has left the police, local mayors and politicians looking like they are the thugs with no response other than to beat on passive disobedient civilians. The way that has played out in the media is massively important for the movement, the lack of violence has allowed it to gain momentum and get others involved where scenes of it would have perhaps put them off.

I know there are many sound intellectual reasons for using violence again the state, but people should be copying what is working and that means not using violence.
 
oh yeah, Mensch tweeted 'occupy ya showers' to some of our lot- think it was aimed at the NHS bill protest on the sunday of last month.

Pathetic really, but I'm sure it keeps them from actually engaging with the argument
 
Barking_Mad said:
A successful mass movement has to take people with it. Many non-participants are skeptical because they see a movement without any aims beyond slogans - if you throw in violent action then you look physically and intellectually bankrupt. Non-violent resistance in the face of police brutality is a brave move for anyone and i understand why not all people are capable of, or want to take this option, but what it does do is to lay bare the mechanations of the state and its enforcers for everyone to see. Those capable of it should be applauded, not denigrated for an apparent lack of courage.

The lack of violence #occupy has had so far has left the police, local mayors and politicians looking like they are the thugs with no response other than to beat on passive disobedient civilians. The way that has played out in the media is massively important for the movement, the lack of violence has allowed it to gain momentum and get others involved where scenes of it would have perhaps put them off.
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Nail on head.

Both in this case where hundreds of peaceful student protesters sent the police into retreat and the case of that one U.S. Marine standing-up to a few dozen cops in New York and likewise sending them into retreat, have been major achievements.

It leaves not only the cops, but the politicians too, lost and confused as to how to respond, it is winning hearts & minds amongst the general population in support of the protesters.

We need more of this sort of thing.
 
A successful mass movement has to take people with it. Many non-participants are skeptical because they see a movement without any aims beyond slogans - if you throw in violent action then you look physically and intellectually bankrupt.
claphamboy said:
Nail on head.

Both in this case where hundreds of peaceful student protesters sent the police into retreat and the case of that one U.S. Marine standing-up to a few dozen cops in New York and likewise sending them into retreat, have been major achievements.

It leaves not only the cops, but the politicians too, lost and confused as to how to respond, it is winning hearts & minds amongst the general population in support of the protesters.

We need more of this sort of thing.
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And that other one.
 
Barking_Mad said:
I wrote the post in the 5 mins i had before the end of my break....I might be wrong but my hunch is that violence at this point would be counter productive. That is all, take it or leave it.
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its a good point - and its qualified - "at this point". Quite right.
 
Welcome to a new meme. Casually pepper spray everything cop
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/casually-pepper-spray-everything-cop/photos

happy-maceday.gif
 
Barking_Mad said:
Id never rule out violence, especially in terms of personal self defence - but that is up to those doing the demonstrating, not for anyone sat on a bulletin board to demand.

My thoughts for what the are worth, is that a long campaign of non-violent civil disobedience and direct action is far more likely to be successful if it holds out against using violence at all, or for as long as physically possible. The problems with violence are that you alienate those people who are 'sat on the fence' about what you are demonstrating for and you give the politicians the easiest of excuses for whatever bully boy behaviour they wish to deploy. The media will rubbish you, the government will rubbish you, other people will rubbish you and you'll end up with zero support and a load of broken bones for your trouble.

A successful mass movement has to take people with it. Many non-participants are skeptical because they see a movement without any aims beyond slogans - if you throw in violent action then you look physically and intellectually bankrupt. Non-violent resistance in the face of police brutality is a brave move for anyone and i understand why not all people are capable of, or want to take this option, but what it does do is to lay bare the mechanations of the state and its enforcers for everyone to see. Those capable of it should be applauded, not denigrated for an apparent lack of courage.

The lack of violence #occupy has had so far has left the police, local mayors and politicians looking like they are the thugs with no response other than to beat on passive disobedient civilians. The way that has played out in the media is massively important for the movement, the lack of violence has allowed it to gain momentum and get others involved where scenes of it would have perhaps put them off.

I know there are many sound intellectual reasons for using violence again the state, but people should be copying what is working and that means not using violence.
Click to expand...

Excellent post.

Fortunately that seems to be the prevailing attitude amongst the Occupy protesters too.
 
Yuwipi Woman said:
The "get a bath and get a job" meme seems to be mostly what I'm hearing.
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This is something to bear in mind when people talk about "raising awareness of police brutality" and how they've made a big mistake this time - a lot fewer people give a shit at all, or even give enough of a shit to read past the headlines, than one might think, and they also forget the details very quickly. If police brutality was generally a mistake it wouldn't be so perennially popular.

I was reading somewhere (might have been here) that a majority of people polled after Kent State thought it was justified.
 
xes said:
goldenyears.jpg
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You know what really funny about these? Its that you know that guys friends and fellow officers are printing these out and posting them all over that cop shop. He'll never hear the end of it.

We had a protest that shut down a branch of Wells Fargo. They did the same thing with a line of sitting people blocking access. Our cops handled it completely different. They let them have their say, let the news crews get their story, and then they picked their limp forms up and carried them away while the camera were rolling. They all were released later in the day.
 
I'm hearing informal reports that the Seattle protestor who pregnant and was beaten by the politce has miscarried. I've not seen it confirmed by a news report, but I'm hearing that they couldn't find the heartbeat in the hospital yesterday. Anyone have a source for this or is it just a rumor?
 
Yuwipi Woman said:
I'm hearing informal reports that the Seattle protestor who pregnant and was beaten by the politce has miscarried. I've not seen it confirmed by a news report, but I'm hearing that they couldn't find the heartbeat in the hospital yesterday. Anyone have a source for this or is it just a rumor?
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if you're hearing informal reports and cannot find confirmation then it is a rumour.
 
FridgeMagnet said:
This is something to bear in mind when people talk about "raising awareness of police brutality" and how they've made a big mistake this time - a lot fewer people give a shit at all, or even give enough of a shit to read past the headlines, than one might think, and they also forget the details very quickly. If police brutality was generally a mistake it wouldn't be so perennially popular.

I was reading somewhere (might have been here) that a majority of people polled after Kent State thought it was justified.
Click to expand...
Probably why it hasn't taken off as much in the UK either.
 
A pregnant woman who was pepper sprayed during the Occupy Seattle protests in the US claims she had a miscarriage five days later as a result of injuries allegedly inflicted by the police.

Jennifer Fox, 19, claims that she was also struck in the stomach twice – once by a police officer's foot and once by an officer's bicycle – as police moved in to disperse marchers on 15 November.

A picture of Fox being carried away became one of the abiding images of the police crackdown on the Occupy Seattle protests, along with that of 84-year-old Dorli Rainey, who was pictured with pepper spray – and liquid used to treat it – dripping from her chin.
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/22/occupy-seattle-protester-miscarriage

Awful if true.
 
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