NUS national protest against the cuts 10.11.10 [London]

[revol68]

Actually it says everything about my view of the role of protest in society, and how we, as a society should approach it, whether or not I (or any other individual) actually supports any particular cause. I absolutely believe in the right of freedoms of speech, association, etc. that combine to provide the freedom to protest. I believe that that should be lawful protest (primarily because of the impact it has on individuals when serious criminal offences are involved). But there should certainly be tolerance (by society) of minor criminal acts in the course of protest. And I would include broken windows, grafitti, etc. in that, certainly on State buildings.

This is the difference you believe the fundamental structures and power relations are fair and only need tinkering with around the edges, I on the other hand understand the whole thing to be a racket, a instrument of class rule central to the exploitation and oppression of the vast majority.

History and reality is on my side, legal textbooks and ideology is on yours.

 

[detective-boy]

It's just not credible.

It was a question, not a statement of fact.

But it is perfectly credible. And you have no more grounds for saying it didn't happen than I would have for saying it did (if that had, in fact, been what I had done).

(The claim by the Sussex University guy to have "masterminded" the thing, which is notable for it's emphasis that he didn't go into the building, tends to suggest that there may well be some degree of organisation. The distinct difference between the heavily masked / hooded individuals filmed kicking windows and gaining entry contrasts significantly with the entirely unmasked individuals pictured subsequently ...)

 

[revol68]

It's how it usually starts. What I actually post usually gets lost in the spittle ...

I know what you post and I'm calling it for what it is liberal apologism for a deepening class war on the poor.

 

[detective-boy]

what like those on benefits being threatened routinely by baying rich cunts on the lunch time and evening news? like the people of Iraq and Afghanistan who had shock and awe rained down upon them whilst peaceful legal protest in this country did nothing to stop it.

Like all sorts of things. As I just pointed out, just because I don't post an opinion on every political issue does not mean I do not have one. Nor does it mean that it would be what you expected.

 

[detective-boy]

and in the meantime?

Things like we saw yesterday will happen.

 

[pk]

Yeah cos there wasn't anarchist and socialist students in decisive roles in the march and the sacking of Tory HQ, furthermore if the kids can see through these cuts and attempt to make common cause with other sections being attacked by the tories then what are they doing but showing that socialism and anarchism are precisely organic products of proletarian struggle and not text book ideologies imposed by philosopher kings.

Now fuck off pk you ugly tedious cunt, I mean how fucking sad do you have to be to enter a discussion post the sacking of Tory HQ and use it as a cheap means of attacking anarchists and socialists, the very people who are most behind the actions of the students.

Go stick your head in the oven.

And of course here I will disagree with revolting68...

Firstly, never insult an oven. It's a good device for making bread and delicious cakes.

Secondly, no, there were NOT anarchist and socialist "students" in decisive roles in the march.

You can not be serious in trying to wrestle some form of victory from the students that have showed up wearing Abercrombie and Fitch sweaters and designer sneakers, just kicking in windows because they were outnumbering the cops?

When will deluded people like you get it into your heads that just because a bunch of people are angry enough it does NOT automatically become an "anarchist" thing?

And a little reality check as if it were needed, the Tory HQ was not "sacked".

Sorry to burst your little Coca Cola bubble, but it seems the Tory HQ was functioning perfectly adequately throughout the protests, and remains functioning as we speak.

Nothing and nobody was "sacked" at all. They just hid in their open plan glass ceilings until all the fuss went away, probably posting on Facebook and Twitter as it happened.

I'm happy to think that these "kids" went along with the humiliating smashy-smashy in support of others exposed to draconian cuts to essential services, but if you think they did that hand on heart supporting the anarchists, you're seriously fucking deluded my diminutive little Irish friend.

The only "organic products of proletarian struggle" most of these lads and lasses know about are the organic range of products available at Waitrose, and no doubt a good few will have consumed the Israeli slave labour produce on the train down from Peterborough before showing up.

You are tragically convinced that "anarchists and socialists" were behind this mercifully corpse-free demo, and this demonstrates to me the level of your Scientologific belief in an old-ass system of protest that simply is not relevant any more.

The truth of it is this - they don't want to pay stupid fees, and they simply smashed shit up for kicks.

To do such a thing does NOT mean they will be waving your fucking laughable outdated anarcho flags, as if they even mean anything these days anyway.

I'm on their side. Not yours.

And I will not fuck off. And I am not considered ugly by any conventional means testing of female litmus indicators, the like of which your dwarfish arse will never know.

Though I will give you tedious.

I'll admit I'm like a dog with a stubborn bone when the mood takes me. I blame the coffee.

Either way, you ain't likely to win, revol68, because you are the yappy little chihuahua to my solid gold labrador. I look upon you with piteous eyes, not even worthy of barking at.

Enjoy what's left of your revolutionary fantasy, shame you won't be invited to the big party when it happens. You have been useful though, so thanks for that.

 

[revol68]

Like all sorts of things. As I just pointed out, just because I don't post an opinion on every political issue does not mean I do not have one. Nor does it mean that it would be what you expected.

I don't need to know any of your other political positions because your naive stance regarding the state and your inability to grasp it's class nature frames and structures all other content.

Just like I don't need to know the in's and out's of theology to know it is fundamentally wrong based as it is on a foundation of imaginary beings.

 

[detective-boy]

Whatever you do don't do anything illegal that would be WRONG!

I quite specifically haven't said that, have I? I have distinguished between things which are illegal but which do not have significant negative impacts on individuals which I have said I believe should be tolerated from time to time as an inevitable adjunct to a proper right to protest and serious criminal offences (such as serious assault, looting, arson) which cannot be tolerated because of the impact they have on innocent individuals who are entitled to be protected by the law and by the State (in the form of the police) (and which, I would argue, undermine protest causes)

 

[pk]

I think the proposed changes to university fees, and much else, are wrong. Just because I don't post about my views on political issues you shouldn't assume what my views are, or that I have none.

You wouldn't have the balls to protest unless someone gave you permission. You are not a free man. I feel sorry for you.

 

[revol68]

And of course here I will disagree with revolting68...

Firstly, never insult an oven. It's a good device for making bread and delicious cakes.

Secondly, no, there were NOT anarchist and socialist "students" in decisive roles in the march.

You can not be serious in trying to wrestle some form of victory from the students that have showed up wearing Abercrombie and Fitch sweaters and designer sneakers, just kicking in windows because they were outnumbering the cops?

When will deluded people like you get it into your heads that just because a bunch of people are angry enough it does NOT automatically become an "anarchist" thing?

And a little reality check as if it were needed, the Tory HQ was not "sacked".

Sorry to burst your little Coca Cola bubble, but it seems the Tory HQ was functioning perfectly adequately throughout the protests, and remains functioning as we speak.

Nothing and nobody was "sacked" at all. They just hid in their open plan glass ceilings until all the fuss went away, probably posting on Facebook and Twitter as it happened.

I'm happy to think that these "kids" went along with the humiliating smashy-smashy in support of others exposed to draconian cuts to essential services, but if you think they did that hand on heart supporting the anarchists, you're seriously fucking deluded my diminutive little Irish friend.

The only "organic products of proletarian struggle" most of these lads and lasses know about are the organic range of products available at Waitrose, and no doubt a good few will have consumed the Israeli slave labour produce on the train down from Peterborough before showing up.

You are tragically convinced that "anarchists and socialists" were behind this mercifully corpse-free demo, and this demonstrates to me the level of your Scientologific belief in an old-ass system of protest that simply is not relevant any more.

The truth of it is this - they don't want to pay stupid fees, and they simply smashed shit up for kicks.

To do such a thing does NOT mean they will be waving your fucking laughable outdated anarcho flags, as if they even mean anything these days anyway.

I'm on their side. Not yours.

And I will not fuck off. And I am not considered ugly by any conventional means testing of female litmus indicators, the like of which your dwarfish arse will never know.

Though I will give you tedious.

I'll admit I'm like a dog with a stubborn bone when the mood takes me. I blame the coffee.

Either way, you ain't likely to win, revol68, because you are the yappy little chihuahua to my solid gold labrador. I look upon you with piteous eyes, not even worthy of barking at.

Enjoy what's left of your revolutionary fantasy, shame you won't be invited to the big party when it happens. You have been useful though, so thanks for that.

there were red and black flags and socialist banners all over the building, the group who occupied the roof released a press release stating they were in solidarity with all public sector workers and all those being attacked by the cuts and that the cuts are nothing more than an attack on the working class.

you are a clown.

 

[detective-boy]

What worries me is that so many people think this is a legitimate form of political engagement, perhaps in this day and age people are just not prepared to commit the time to joining a party and actually having to have serious debates about issues.

Again the politicians need to look at what they do and how they do it and ask why people don't want to engage. I personally choose to keep myself informed about what is happening in the world and engage in thought about it and discussion about it with friends. Many people simply do not (for a variety of reasons). Young people in particular need to be engaged in debating the issues in a manner which is relevant and user-friendly to them. Times have changed. Politicial practices and procedures have not.

(By the way, whilst the students obviously have some self-interest in this issue, I think you do them a disservice if you think it is entirely self-interest. There is a major issue for our whole society and future. And costs have always (until recently) been covered by the State collectively in the past.)

 

[pk]

there were red and black flags and socialist banners all over the building, the group who occupied the roof released a press release stating they were in solidarity with all public sector workers and all those being attacked by the cuts and that the cuts are nothing more than an attack on the working class.

you are a clown.

Aye. Fashionistas, they love it, they might even end up in the Daily Standard, just hoping their parents might understand them

Sorry but no - fail. People were burning banners, and a few people were dressed in black, it's winter, get a grip.

A couple of twats spraying @ logos does not an anarchist protest make. You won't be taking credit for a balls-out protest by UNMASKED students even if ten of you were there.

Trying to brand a protest like this, you remind me of the parasitical Socialist Worker twats, here's a wake up call, nobody gives a fuck about YOUR agenda...

Let's see some photos of majority anarchist organisation behind this event, or it didn't happen outside of your dreams.
The students don't need the likes of you to know which way the wind blows. Get used to it.

 

[detective-boy]

Democracy is a sham, a mask for class rule.

There are serious problems with it, yes. I believe the class war is a distraction today. Wealth inequality (regardless of class - there are plenty of working class Essex lads with far too much wealth thanks to Thatcher's approach to the city ...) is the issue that concerns me most. I have seen little in any developed society to suggest a sound (and credible) model for addressing it.

But democracy is far, far better than dictatorship (of any colour).

 

[detective-boy]

... though there is something rather charmingly quaint about you and Detective Boys wide eyed belief in Parliamentary Democracy and the legal system.

As there is something charmingly naive in your wide-eyed belief that there is some readily available alternative structure which is better ...

 

[pk]

There are serious problems with it, yes. I believe the class war is a distraction today. Wealth inequality (regardless of class - there are plenty of working class Essex lads with far too much wealth thanks to Thatcher's approach to the city ...) is the issue that concerns me most. I have seen little in any developed society to suggest a sound (and credible) model for addressing it.

But democracy is far, far better than dictatorship (of any colour).

What "democracy" are you talking about? You think we live in a democracy now? Fuck off.

 

[revol68]

Aye. Fashionistas, they love it, they might even end up in the Daily Standard, just hoping their parents might understand them

Sorry but no - fail. People were burning banners, and a few people were dressed in black, it's winter, get a grip.

A couple of twats spraying @ logos does not an anarchist protest make. You won't be taking credit for a balls-out protest by UNMASKED students even if ten of you were there.

Trying to brand a protest like this, you remind me of the parasitical Socialist Worker twats, here's a wake up call, nobody gives a fuck about YOUR agenda...

I never said Anarchists or Socialists did organise the riot, they were however a part of it, something so blatantly true I don't know why I'm even saying it again.

As for the kids dressing well, maybe you just know the wrong type of anarchists and socialists and their mates but the ones I know are actually pretty hipsterish, long gone are the days of Class War and Black Bomber jackets with red and black pins.

Believe me I'd love to think that all the rampaging was done by non anarchists and socialists but the simple fact is that it isn't true, which at the same time isn't to say that most of the students kicking off were anarchists or socialists.

Regardless this is a pointless argument, whether or not these people go to bed with a big red and black teddy bear or a copy of Nuts and a Pot Noodle I couldn't give a fuck, what is important is supporting their actions, defending their actions and looking to build on these actions in order to be successful not only in fighting fees but the whole raft of cuts aimed at attacking the working classes, anarchists and socialists should naturally aim towards this too and certainly not at simply selling newspapers or trying to throw themselves up as some sort of leadership.

 

[revol68]

As there is something charmingly naive in your wide-eyed belief that there is some readily available alternative structure which is better ...

ofcourse there isn't an alternative structure, the whole point is that only through struggle and resistance can we actually come together in order to produce not just the space and conditions for such an alternative but the social relations that can sustain it.

 

[revol68]

There are serious problems with it, yes. I believe the class war is a distraction today. Wealth inequality (regardless of class - there are plenty of working class Essex lads with far too much wealth thanks to Thatcher's approach to the city ...) is the issue that concerns me most. I have seen little in any developed society to suggest a sound (and credible) model for addressing it.

But democracy is far, far better than dictatorship (of any colour).

Well if you had an understanding of Class that didn't come out of the fucking Beano or Sun you might understand why class is fundamental.

I'm not being a dick here, you should really give Marx a read, or failing that download some audio lectures of Chomsky on class struggle.

 

[pk]

I never said Anarchists or Socialists did organise the riot, they were however a part of it, something so blatantly true I don't know why I'm even saying it again.

As for the kids dressing well, maybe you just know the wrong type of anarchists and socialists and their mates but the ones I know are actually pretty hipsterish, long gone are the days of Class War and Black Bomber jackets with red and black pins.

Believe me I'd love to think that all the rampaging was done by non anarchists and socialists but the simple fact is that it isn't true, which at the same time isn't to say that most of the students kicking off were anarchists or socialists.

Regardless this is a pointless argument, whether or not these people go to bed with a big red and black teddy bear or a copy of Nuts and a Pot Noodle I couldn't give a fuck, what is important is supporting their actions, defending their actions and looking to build on these actions in order to be successful not only in fighting fees but the whole raft of cuts aimed at attacking the working classes, anarchists and socialists should naturally aim towards this too and certainly not at simply selling newspapers or trying to throw themselves up as some sort of leadership.

I'll agree, this isn't even a pointless argument... it's not even an argument at all. I agree with broadly all your socialist principles, you know that by now.

As long as there isn't some ugly old-arse dinosaur movement handing out leaflets to the new generation who could not give a flying fuck for the old ways, it's all good.

I was there watching the demo for a while. It felt good. And that is all I came here to say.
I have hope for the future, because it does not belong to the fucking Tories, thats for sure.



It's just a shame about the silly cunt lobbing the extinguisher at the cops.
Gave the tabloid press an excuse to brand everyone as cunts, when they were merely "opportunists", as they were ideologically supposed to be according to Thatcher.
Still, looks like there's a good close-up of him in the papers today, he must be shitting it not just from impending jail time but from the political backlash from normal people...

 

[sunnysidedown]

'maybe you just know the wrong type of anarchists and socialists and their mates but the ones I know are actually pretty hipsterish'

hipsterish?

 

[detective-boy]

ofcourse there isn't an alternative structure, the whole point is that only through struggle and resistance can we actually come together in order to produce not just the space and conditions for such an alternative but the social relations that can sustain it.

The "struggle and resistance" would be far more effective if it actually engaged with the vast majority of ordinary citizens (way too many of whom can't even be bothered to vote ... ). Marketed in the way it has been marketed it will remain a minority interest, no matter how important it's message. Keep doing the same things the same ways and you will keep getting the same results.

 

[detective-boy]

I'm not being a dick here, you should really give Marx a read, or failing that download some audio lectures of Chomsky on class struggle.

I've read lots of stuff. I don't believe that constant reference to it helps engage the vast majority of people. And principles don't help us (whoever the "us" are suggesting any particular principles) work out how to achieve them - all that is for sure is that we will probably never get anywhere if we expect to do it in a big bang. We need to work incrementally, making a difference where possible to improve our society. And we need to take the majority of the population with us.

 

[pk]

As there is something charmingly naive in your wide-eyed belief that there is some readily available alternative structure which is better ...

There is a readily available structure that is better. Get used to it. It is happening before your very eyes, you myopic twat.

 

[revol68]

The "struggle and resistance" would be far more effective if it actually engaged with the vast majority of ordinary citizens (way too many of whom can't even be bothered to vote ... ). Marketed in the way it has been marketed it will remain a minority interest, no matter how important it's message. Keep doing the same things the same ways and you will keep getting the same results.

Well the students actions seemed pretty damn popular, getting thousands of students to even get up in the morning suggests that there is a growing anger and frustration and hopefully like the student occupation this will translate into militant direct action that ignores the hand wringing loyal opposition of MP's, Union leaders and all the rest of the play by the(eir) rules brigade.

If the wider working class takes up the baton your mates on the force could be in for quite a ride, of course youse could redeem your whore souls somewhat and refuse to act against the working class, though I really really don't see that happening.

 

[revol68]

I've read lots of stuff. I don't believe that constant reference to it helps engage the vast majority of people. And principles don't help us (whoever the "us" are suggesting any particular principles) work out how to achieve them - all that is for sure is that we will probably never get anywhere if we expect to do it in a big bang. We need to work incrementally, making a difference where possible to improve our society. And we need to take the majority of the population with us.

Neither do I, I'm suggesting you read it so you have a better means of grasping the motives of the cuts and wider social forces at play and most importantly why you're approach to these issues is flawed.

 

[pk]

I've read lots of stuff. I don't believe that constant reference to it helps engage the vast majority of people. And principles don't help us (whoever the "us" are suggesting any particular principles) work out how to achieve them - all that is for sure is that we will probably never get anywhere if we expect to do it in a big bang. We need to work incrementally, making a difference where possible to improve our society. And we need to take the majority of the population with us.

I don't suppose it's ever occurred to you that the people directly opposing the draconian new "laws" by any means necessary are acting in your favour too??

After all, on a copper's wage, it's not as if YOUR son or daughter will ever be able to attend university is it? No, that is only available for your bosses kids, as of now.

Unfair, isn't it?

You can toe the party line all you like, as if anyone gives a fuck, but one day you will be grateful for someone opposing the system when it benefits YOU.

It won't be long now either, will it, eh Grandad?

 

[A. Spies]

in opposition dictatorship occupation they are valid.

If were were under Franco or Hitler a sit down protest or an office occupation with a bit of property damage would probably be morally justifiable. Maybe even a few law enforcement agents with cuts but that's probly pushing it.

 

[Citizen66]

Most think extreme left wing class politics is a tired joke.

Oh really? How many have you asked?

When I was living by Queen Mary's Uni and frequented the same bar as many there were plenty of aspiring marxists in there.

 

[Santino]

It is really a form of graduate tax. It's fair in the sense that those working class people on low incomes who didn't go to University don't have to contribute to those who benefit from it.

You really are astoundingly economically illiterate. You're like a lamb.

 

[madzone]

I've read lots of stuff. I don't believe that constant reference to it helps engage the vast majority of people. And principles don't help us (whoever the "us" are suggesting any particular principles) work out how to achieve them - all that is for sure is that we will probably never get anywhere if we expect to do it in a big bang. We need to work incrementally, making a difference where possible to improve our society. And we need to take the majority of the population with us.

Are you going to be affected by the cuts? There isn't time to 'work incrementally'.