Nietzsche and fascism??

[frogwoman]

soo umm is it true that Nietzsche's ideology is essentially fascist? that's what a book i am reading at the moment D) seems to be saying ... saying that the "will to power" is a fascist concept, and saying that nietszche's attack on religion and conventional morality is essentially a fascist crituque of it ...

however, i always thought nietzsche was saying that the conventional morality (which he also links to the state) was bad because it stops us thinking for ourselves and maintaining an illusion that the world is based on compassion rather than the politics of power - and because the world is based on the politics of power people should just take advantage of it ...

also, Nietzsche describes the desire to rule over others as a sign of "weakness" whereas facism obiviously doesn't. i'm not saying that he was necessarily right, because a lotof his opinions are blatantly elitist, but he opposed nationalism and thought things like anti-semitism were signs of an "inferior mind" which doesn't seem like something fascists would welcome

however, from the books i have been reading, there also seems to have been plenty in nietzsche's philosophy which could be interpreted as fascist, or having fascist sympathies, but on the other hand it could just be elitism, or it could be taken to oppose the sort of reactionary right wing ideology that fascism is, but they've just expropriated it?

from nietszche's views on the jews, etc, it doesn't seem like he would be the sort of person to sympathise with fascism, given that he viewed the idea of people being led by a strong leader, and people with a desire to rule over others as weak themselves ...but on the other hand ...

so was he, or wasn't he?

 

[Dillinger4]

*subscribes*

 

[frogwoman]

innit, i can see this going well

 

[DotCommunist]

well from what I have been told/read (so secondary sources only) the appropriation of nietzchian philosophy by the far right is a selective misreading and he wasn't really advocating a monstrous ideal at all.

Not sure I buy that tbh.


shall we open a book on how many times the name will be misspelled in tis thread?

 

[Brainaddict]

From my (not comprehensive) knowledge I read him as elitist and from time to time slightly bullying in his tone (his lack of sympathy for 'weak' people) but still almost the opposite of fascist, since the idea of a mono-thought culture - which is what fascism really advocates - would have been repulsive to him. I think he opened himself to misreadings with the aforementioned bullying tone though.

That all makes it sound like I hate him - in fact I think he's one of the most interesting philosophers in European history. I've had a few conversations along the lines of:

Person: I think Eastern philosophy is so much more interesting than Western philosophy

Me: Have you read any Nietzsche?

Person: No, wasn't he a fascist?

Me: No, he was just a bit tetchy and couldn't abide stupid people, which is most of them. So really, you've read none of him?

Person: No, none

Me: Well if you haven't bothered to read the most iconoclastic philosopher in Western philosophy then I really don't think you're in a position to swan about saying that some snippets of philosophy you find really exotic and fluffy are inherently superior to the whole Western tradition

Person: You're an arsehole

Me: I know. A lot of people say that

 

[frogwoman]

From my (not comprehensive) knowledge I read him as elitist and from time to time slightly bullying in his tone (his lack of sympathy for 'weak' people) but still almost the opposite of fascist, since the idea of a mono-thought culture - which is what fascism really advocates - would have been repulsive to him. I think he opened himself to misreadings with the aforementioned bullying tone though.

That all makes it sound like I hate him - in fact I think he's one of the most interesting philosophers in European history. I've had a few conversations along the lines of:

Person: I think Eastern philosophy is so much more interesting than Western philosophy

Me: Have you read any Nietzsche?

Person: No, wasn't he a fascist?

Me: No, he was just a bit tetchy and couldn't abide stupid people, which is most of them. So really, you've read none of him?

Person: No, none

Me: Well if you haven't bothered to read the most iconoclastic philosopher in Western philosophy then I really don't think you're in a position to swan about saying that some snippets of philosophy you find really exotic and fluffy are inherently superior to the whole Western tradition

Person: You're an arsehole

Me: I know. A lot of people say that

good post

 

[Dillinger4]

From my (not comprehensive) knowledge I read him as elitist and from time to time slightly bullying in his tone (his lack of sympathy for 'weak' people) but still almost the opposite of fascist, since the idea of a mono-thought culture - which is what fascism really advocates - would have been repulsive to him. I think he opened himself to misreadings with the aforementioned bullying tone though.

That all makes it sound like I hate him - in fact I think he's one of the most interesting philosophers in European history. I've had a few conversations along the lines of:

Person: I think Eastern philosophy is so much more interesting than Western philosophy

Me: Have you read any Nietzsche?

Person: No, wasn't he a fascist?

Me: No, he was just a bit tetchy and couldn't abide stupid people, which is most of them. So really, you've read none of him?

Person: No, none

Me: Well if you haven't bothered to read the most iconoclastic philosopher in Western philosophy then I really don't think you're in a position to swan about saying that some snippets of philosophy you find really exotic and fluffy are inherently superior to the whole Western tradition

Person: You're an arsehole

Me: I know. A lot of people say that

 

[butchersapron]

Not so much a misreading by many people as N's sister putting out bowlderised versions with anti-semitic rantings and other such bullshit stuck in there after his death.

 

[Santino]

He admired Jewish culture and pretended to be descended from Polish aristocracy which he thought was better than being German. So his adoption by the Nazis was ironic.

 

[gorski]

He admired Jewish culture and pretended to be descended from Polish aristocracy which he thought was better than being German. So his adoption by the Nazis was ironic.

Moreover, he was considering writing in French, as he really hated what "an average sausage maker in Germany [of his time] wanted" and the way it was all turning out... Call that prophetic if you wish...

 

[Jorum]

Not so much a misreading by many people as N's sister putting out bowlderised versions with anti-semitic rantings and other such bullshit stuck in there after his death.

An important point I think. I don't think there's evidence that Nietzsche ever intended to publish anything like "The will to power".
My understanding is his sister put it together from bits and pieces of his writings and in doing so added her own racist/facist angle to it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Not so much a misreading by many people as N's sister putting out bowlderised versions with anti-semitic rantings and other such bullshit stuck in there after his death.

Yes, good old Elizabet. She took her brother's rather interesting legacy to the world and tried to turn it into material that justified her own prejudices.

 

[Laney]

As I understand it Hitler adopted Nietzsche's Superman as his Aryan ideal... which was less a misinterpretation than a non-interpretation. The point of the Superman is that he is able to live in spite of his knowledge and understanding of the void that waits for him after death... not a lot in there about murdering Jews and having blue eyes.

Where does Nietzsche describe his ideal fascist state???

 

[frogwoman]

he doesn't. he describes the state as the new idol. he viewed people who wanked over the state's "iron hand" with the utmost contempt from what i can see, and he viewed people who wanted to rule as the opposite of the "ubermensch" who could be a perfectly mild mannered person who had merely the utmost self confidence in themselves.

that isn't to say that i don't think he wasn't an elitist cunt at times ...

 

[articul8]

If you can find this in a library, it gives a historical account of Nietzsche's reception which shows his influence on some German leftists:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Left-Wing-Nietzscheans-Expressionism-Nietzscge-Forschung/dp/3110124572/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228903760&sr=1-1

 

[100% masahiko]

I've been reading Nietzsche for years. Find him to be one of the most interesting, influential and romantic writers in modern philosophy.
He rejected the notion of equality and humanity - made the reader question their own rules and values. He was the first deconstructionist. He broke everything with what he called an iron hammer - from religion, laws, political beliefs to love and romanticism - into tiny bits for 'us' to see.
But the 'us' of 19th century didn't take him seriously and saw Marx and Engels as the markers of truth.
I think Heidegger, Bataille (philosopher of controversy), Foucault, Mishima and Derrida made him alive again.
And no, he was not a fascist. That was Hitler's take on his words. Nietzsche was into self-overcoming. To fight your own battles and not to follow other people's orders. To stand tall. To empower the self. To never depend.
Also, the Will to Power was never meant for release.

 

[Demosthenes]

#the vague connection between nietzche and the nazis may be that Nietzche had this evolutionary view of culture, in which different conceptual systems might compete, and the stronger conceptual system would dominate the weaker and become "the truth" which taken simplistically provided some sort of pseudo-justification for the nazis' redefinition of good and evil on the basis of their having the strength to do so.