My electricity bill has just tripled: how about yours? Alternative suppliers?

[CH1]

Energy firms refusing to supply small UK businesses over bankruptcy fears

The government now own an energy company - Bulb.
They should make it the supplier of last resort, so it has to supply people being tuned down by the biggies.
This type of policy has worked in personal finance:
GLC used to give you a mortgage if Abbey National etc refused
Tony Benn's National Girobank never refused a customer!

Same thing with several rail companies - and buses
The Mayor of London had their own bus company (East Thames Busses) due to several franchises going bust in the early days. Brixton residents might remember blue 196 buses with no safety screens for the drivers - this was Cityrama in the heyday of Thatcherism. This route passed through several dud operators - including Connex - before finally landing safely with London General in 2006.
Another celebrity bus crash in south London was Easylink, who ran the 42 and the 185. It was reported that on 21st August 2002 when Easylink went into liquidation passengers were kicked off their buses in mid journey. East Thames Buses had to rescue those routes.

Accounts know the value of money - but have no decency.

 

[two sheds]

Storage is certainly something that is needed, wind can be so unreliable, we've had a number of days where it was only producing 3-5% of electric, somwhat better this morning at 16.5%.

Solar's been good though?

 

[cupid_stunt]

Solar's been good though?

Yep, when the sun gets going, it's been around 20% at noon, but only 4% ATM.

National Grid: Live

Shows the live status of Great Britain’s electric power transmission network

grid.iamkate.com

 

[two sheds]

Demand reduction and demand shifting would help. Nuclear's really expensive and takes years to come on line.

 

[alex_]

Not sure this is very significant. When it's not windy, other sources will be at a premium because with little wind there will be fewer generating resources. However wind generators don't get to auction their electricity at such advantageous times when there are deficits of other sources, so they will on average attract a lower price. If renewable generators could store their energy it would be a different matter of course...

They are only paid for power actually delivered though, and at 2.5x cheaper than nuclear - we can have afford over capacity if required. You are correct about storage though, batteries are falling in price but still more expensive than nuclear currently.

 

[brogdale]

They are only paid for power actually delivered though, and at 2.5x cheaper than nuclear - we can have afford over capacity if required. You are correct about storage though, batteries are falling in price but still more expensive than nuclear currently.

I gather there are safety issues with the mega batteries proposed by the solar farmers?
Certainly I've been aware of the way that the Cleve Hill (anti-solar farm) campaigners have used the fire/explosion risk as a strand of their objection.


Can't see why the old pumped storage (hydro) schemes couldn't soak up the energy produced on sunny days to release on cloudy ones?

 

[kabbes]

Yeah, I also don’t get why they don’t make more of pumped storage.I guess it requires a whole separate hydroelectric infrastructure, which probably doubles the price and land needed.

 

[brogdale]

Yeah, I also don’t get why they don’t make more of pumped storage.I guess it requires a whole separate hydroelectric infrastructure, which probably doubles the price and land needed.

Oh yeah, the solar farmers don't want anything to do with nasty infrastructure costs; the Cleve Hill mob are only there to cover good agri/arable fields because the infrastructure is already there for the turbine array cable land-fall.

That said, i always though the pumped storage schemes were there to balance up the whole grid so, as a contributor to the grid, why couldn't solar generated power be stored that way with the massive (dangerous?) lithium ion kit?

 

[existentialist]

Yeah, I also don’t get why they don’t make more of pumped storage.I guess it requires a whole separate hydroelectric infrastructure, which probably doubles the price and land needed.

Dinorwig cost £475m in 1974 (so about £3bn in today's money).

I also note the lack of convenient mountains to hollow out in the Kent area...

 

[CH1]

I gather there are safety issues with the mega batteries proposed by the solar farmers?
Certainly I've been aware of the way that the Cleve Hill (anti-solar farm) campaigners have used the fire/explosion risk as a strand of their objection.

View attachment 340303
Can't see why the old pumped storage (hydro) schemes couldn't soak up the energy produced on sunny days to release on cloudy ones?

Where do you suggest that would be then? Clearly this sort of thing works in Wales, Scotland Norway (all of which are NOT England - take back control etc).
Thames Water closed the high level reservoir top of Brixton Hill to offer much-needed Yuppy Flats.
Apparently TW no longer need reservoirs - they have a high power "ring-main"

But it's not just high level reservoirs - you need a large lower reservoir too. And a (very) steep incline.
Where are these all available in the Home Counties - not adjacent to nimby planning nuts?

 

[brogdale]

Dinorwig cost £475m in 1974 (so about £3bn in today's money).

I also note the lack of convenient mountains to hollow out in the Kent area...

But Dinorwig wasn't there just to soak up power generated in that part of N. Wales, was it?

 

[SpookyFrank]

Yeah, I also don’t get why they don’t make more of pumped storage.I guess it requires a whole separate hydroelectric infrastructure, which probably doubles the price and land needed.

But we also need more drinking water capacity. A functioning government would be able to put two and two together on this and invest in facilities that can do generation, energy storage and water storage. Good luck waiting for the private sector to do it; water companies get paid for doing nothing and power companies can charge a higher price when energy is scarce.

 

[existentialist]

But Dinorwig wasn't there just to soak up power generated in that part of N. Wales, was it?

No, it isn't. But the number of sites available to build future Dinorwigs is, by their very nature, limited.

And I think there's something else - Dinorwig was commissioned by the CEGB, a nationalised infrastructure organisation. Our fragmented, short-termist industry isn't going to be interested in sinking billions in something like this while there are cheaper (albeit potentially more dangerous) options out there, like battery storage.

 

[kabbes]

How close to the production site does the pump storage site need to be? Couldn’t you site it up in the highlands of Scotland or the Peak District or somewhere else with a lot of natural gradient?

 

[CH1]

How close to the production site does the pump storage site need to be? Couldn’t you site it up in the highlands of Scotland or the Peak District or somewhere else with a lot of natural gradient?

Good job there's a national grid isn't it? Who owns that then?

 

[WouldBe]

Dinorwig cost £475m in 1974 (so about £3bn in today's money).

I also note the lack of convenient mountains to hollow out in the Kent area...

Not enough water to fill it.

 

[SpookyFrank]

How close to the production site does the pump storage site need to be? Couldn’t you site it up in the highlands of Scotland or the Peak District or somewhere else with a lot of natural gradient?

The further you have to transfer electricity, the less efficient that transfer is.

The same is not true of transferring water under pressure however. No reason water storage and hydroelectric generation need to be in the same place...

 

[kabbes]

The further you have to transfer electricity, the less efficient that transfer is.

The same is not true of transferring water under pressure however. No reason water storage and hydroelectric generation need to be in the same place...

That’s really interesting. So are you suggesting that the surplus power could be used to pump water from local reservoirs to wherever the hydroelectric generation is?

 

[SpookyFrank]

That’s really interesting. So are you suggesting that the surplus power could be used to pump water from local reservoirs to wherever the hydroelectric generation is?

And that stored water pressure could be used to generate current where it's needed rather than where the water is stored. We already move water around everywhere using the siphon principle anyway.

Honestly that just popped into my head, I've no idea if it's feasible but also, I can't really see why it isn't. Moving water using GPE is not actually 100% efficient of course but it's a lot more efficient than moving electric current.

 

[two sheds]

UHV transmission has been used to transmit power over 2000 km for 10 years in China.

 

[SpookyFrank]

UHV transmission has been used to transmit power over 2000 km for 10 years in China.

But is it likely to be much use for a grid supporting a large number of intermittent, low output renewable energy sources?

Genuine question btw.

 

[bcuster]

You must be using air conditioning?

Yes. Most homes in my area are a/c

 

[two sheds]

But is it likely to be much use for a grid supporting a large number of intermittent, low output renewable energy sources?

Genuine question btw.

you may be right - I think they use it for transmitting hydro power

 

[SpookyFrank]

you may be right - I think they use it for transmitting hydro power

Which makes sense. China is a big place and has lots of very big hydro dams, which (and my knowledge of Chinese geography is pretty non-existent) are presumably not where most of the population is.

The UK is small, and has an order of magnitude fewer people in it. Also it's not a dictatorship and we can't just decide to flood the whole of Derbyshire for hydro power. So we're likely to need lots of small things for generation and storage if we're ever going to get away from burning stuff for energy. I do think there's a lot of potential for joined-up thinking involving both water and power infrastructure. Some of this might be possible via retrofitting instead of building completely new stuff which we are, in this century at least, pretty fucking shit at.

 

[two sheds]

Could be useful for connecting up large numbers of remote onshore or offshore wind turbines I'd have thought, also hydro in 'mountainous' areas.

 

[Storm Fox]

UHV transmission has been used to transmit power over 2000 km for 10 years in China.

In New Zealand they use HV DC. I was driving along and noticed the pylon one had two main cables.

They also use SWER too, Single Wire Earth Return (SWER) | Engineering New Zealand just one wire and using earth as the return.

 

[pinkmonkey]

Yep, when the sun gets going, it's been around 20% at noon, but only 4% ATM.

National Grid: Live

Shows the live status of Great Britain’s electric power transmission network

grid.iamkate.com

I’m off grid on my boat, we have a solar set up of 750w whichisn’t much based on house standards. Panels were about £300 (plus we have some spares, we have broken a couple before) . The controller was the most money £500. They have paid for themselves about twice , now. To get the same output in midwinter vs midsummer I’d need 10 x the amount of panels. Not enough space on my roof! I’d still recommend them to anyone - if you’re on a budget Bimble Solar are great. It’s not hard to DIY a set up. Our panels were bought as deadstock/ joblot from them, we drove down there and bought as many as we could carry. We’re getting better batteries this month, lithium ones will mean we get more charge in the late autumn and spring, I’m hoping this’ll mean I can run my fridge freezer all year, it’s a mate of mine who sells the batteries - he says I should be able to cut my diesel use by 75% this winter. Seeing as we were spending £40 a week on diesel in the 6 weeks of midwinter that’ll help the budget. We’ve also got a couple of gennies, a hefty Yanmar Diesel one that was a boat engine (kept at my dads) and a Honda one that runs on petrol that I need to get serviced. El jugs has always said, come the apocalpse we’ll be sorted and I thought he was exaggerating but, fucking hell how much do things turn on the head of a pin? Oh I’ve also got a Rutland wind genny that’s in storage at my dads, but they’re no good unless you live in a seriously windy exposed place, I used to turn it off so I could sleep as it’s really noisy.

 

[pinkmonkey]

Still thinking of buying a socialist kettle. This is in Argos for £18. One reviewer said "sturdy kettle, unlike some.." another "the handle gets too hot to handle, it boils water...that's it really" another "good whistle but takes longer to boil than an electric kettle"
View attachment 340145
There is a competitor for £8.99 from OnBuy.com. I like the gay purple colour, but the spout looks like it's paid a visit to an American circumcision clinic
View attachment 340146
I feel a bit trepidacious about parting with £8.99 to an unknown internet vendor in Manchester - but there again I bought a Digiview remote control from a similar establishment "for a friend" and it worked! He was delighted.
Any views?

Buy one of the fast boil ones with holes around the bottom of the rim like this vintage copper kettle. fast boil gasThe economics | eBay sort of thing you’ll find at a car boot

 

[cupid_stunt]

I’m off grid on my boat, we have a solar set up of 750w which isn’t much based on house standards.

And, a standard house set-up will not be much compared with what Radio Caroline is planning at their AM transmitter, which uses about 10Kw per hour 24/7, luckily they have a massive roof area and plenty of surrounding space, it'll the first transmitter site in the UK to have a massive solar array.

Being run by volunteers and mainly listener funded, they will be trying to get a decent discount from a company in return for advertising, and they raised about £70k from their recent annual fund raising weekend, with half going to maintaining their ship, and half for the solar project, should be interesting to see how much that £35k budget gets them.

 

[CH1]

Buy one of the fast boil ones with holes around the bottom of the rim like this vintage copper kettle. fast boil gasThe economics | eBay sort of thing you’ll find at a car boot

It's possible I've got one of those knocking around - loft? Don't remember throwing it out.
But I don't remember much these days! I ordered the £8.99 one - due to arrive 3rd-9th Sept (post permitting I guess)