My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding

[grit]

Erm is there anyone here who actually has regular contact with Irish travellers?

Doesn't seem like it to me!

I do, I'm Irish and have had regular dealings with a variety of families from the travelling community.

 

[lizzieloo]

It's not the same for all of them, there is no hard and fast rules! I know travellers with cats, and dogs lick their own genitals all the time, yet most travellers seem to have them around.

The dresses at the annual horse sale, OMG!

I liked the 20ft train

Shame Sammy Jo's new husband looked like some kind of boxing loving inbred, maybe that's why she was so scared? Do you reckon it was arranged somehow, did they say where they met?

Wasn't that Joan that was scared? Sammy Jo knew her husband well, they'd been brought up on the same site.

Joan said she'd only met her fiance a couple of times before marrying him.

 

[lizzieloo]

That last wedding was a real contrast to the ones featured before. Apart from the fear the girl clearly felt, the reception was pretty empty. I wonder whether that was because the family'd lived on an estate for 15 odd years and weren't part of the traveller community any more? Really good programme - raised loads of questions that'll probably never be answered though.

Loads of answers here

http://www.itmtrav.com/publications/reports.html

 

[zenie]

Wasn't that Joan that was scared? Sammy Jo knew her husband well, they'd been brought up on the same site.

Joan said she'd only met her fiance a couple of times before marrying him.

Sorry I'm a bit rubbish remmebering names, you're probably right. The one that married 'Pa' I meant, and was that really his name?

 

[Thora]

Sorry I'm a bit rubbish remmebering names, you're probably right. The one that married 'Pa' I meant, and was that really his name?

Yeah that was Joan - the 22 year old who had managed to finish school and had a job. I have a feeling her life isn't going to be great.

 

[lizzieloo]

Sorry I'm a bit rubbish remmebering names, you're probably right. The one that married 'Pa' I meant, and was that really his name?

Pa = Patrick

 

[DotCommunist]

Padraig

 

[lizzieloo]

Padraig

Nah, his name was Patrick

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

On a similar RASCIST note - if those lads saying they'd never marry a country girl, were a group of english lads saying quick as a flash they'd never marry, say, a black girl because 'they've got a culture to uphold' would it be as acceptable?

Its not so different from asian families being insistent that their child should marry someone of the same religion/social standing... its often for the very same reasons that theres an expectation that children should marry within their own circles

Why do people focus on white V's black when discussing recism?
I dont believe its racist if theres s cultural expectation to form partnerships and families within your own historical 'rules'

 

[Ground Elder]

using the Mandla Criteria[/URL] -

Mandla v Dowell Lee [1983] 2 AC 548, Lord Fraser set out the factors to be considered in assessing whether a protected "ethnic group" exists,

"For a group to constitute an ethnic group in the sense of the [Race Relations] Act of 1976, it must, in my opinion, regard itself, and be regarded by others, as a distinct community by virtue of certain characteristics. Some of these characteristics are essential; others are not essential but one or more of them will commonly be found and will help to distinguish the group from the surrounding community. The conditions which appear to me to be essential are these, (1) a long shared history, of which the group is conscious as distinguishing it from other groups, and the memory of which it keeps alive; (2) a cultural tradition of its own, including family and social customs and manners, often but not necessarily associated with religious observance. In addition to these two essential characteristics the following characteristics are, in my opinion, relevant, (3) either a common geographical origin, or descent from a number of common ancestors; (4) a common language, not necessarily peculiar to the group; (5) a common literature peculiar to the group; (6) a common religion different from that of neighbouring groups or from the general community surrounding it; (7) being a minority or being an oppressed or dominant group within a larger community, for example (say, the inhabitants of England shortly after the Norman conquest and their conquerors might both be ethnic groups.) A group defined by reference to enough of these characteristics would be capable of including converts, for example, persons who marry into the group, and of excluding apostates. Provided a person who joins the group feels himself or herself to be a member of it, and is accepted by other members, then he is, for the purposes of the Act, a member. . . . In my opinion, it is possible for a person to fall into a particular racial group either by birth or adherence, and it makes no difference, so far as the Act of 1976 is concerned, by which route he finds his way into the group." ([1983] 2 AC at 562)​

Erm is there anyone here who actually has regular contact with Irish travellers? Doesn't seem like it to me!

Well there's me

Is there a great distinction between Roma and Irish when it comes to all this wuzho and marime stuff? The author talks a lot about Roma but I didn't see any mention of Irish travellers.

Irish Traveller morals and customs are more influenced by their strict Roman Catholicism. Although there has always been some intermarriage between Romany Gypsies and Irish Travellers they remain two distinct groups.

 

[Bonfirelight]

Its not so different from asian families being insistent that their child should marry someone of the same religion/social standing... its often for the very same reasons that theres an expectation that children should marry within their own circles

Why do people focus on white V's black when discussing recism?
I dont believe its racist if theres s cultural expectation to form partnerships and families within your own historical 'rules'

Exactly - i think both views are pretty narrow and not very 21st century tbh. Racism is far too strong a term, but it falls pretty squarly into prejudice imo.

white vs black is just an easy way of making examples i guess.

anyway, twas a pretty interesting programme.

 

[Thimble Queen]

i really wanna know how much those dresses cost!!

 

[Chairman Meow]

i really wanna know how much those dresses cost!!

I remember reading of one that cost the bride's da 15k!

 

[weepiper]

Nah, his name was Patrick

Padraig is just how Patrick is spelt in Irish Gaelic.

 

[lizzieloo]

Padraig is just how Patrick is spelt in Irish Gaelic.

Yeah but his name's Patrick, not Padraig

Just like mine is still Elizabeth not Eilish even in Ireland

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

Exactly - i think both views are pretty narrow and not very 21st century tbh. Racism is far too strong a term, but it falls pretty squarly into prejudice imo.

white vs black is just an easy way of making examples i guess.

anyway, twas a pretty interesting programme.

But why should people have to conform to some sort of '21st C' way of living..?
THATS precisely why they wish to marry' one of their own' and carry on their culture and traditions- because other people have beliefs and values that they dont share and dont wish to- beliefs which are both positive and negative to outsiders looking in.

Predudice?? Maybe.... but IMO its only prejudice if there was to be some sort of negativity towards people who were 'outsiders'
I believe travellers face far more marginalisation and prejudice than they project. Its therefore entirely understandable that they would rather keep their culture and traditions by marrying within their own community

 

[Chairman Meow]

There is one thing I don't get about Irish travellers, and would be grateful if someone could explain it. I know they have loads of cleaning taboos and rituals, and the inside of their caravans are spotless. So how come their camps are always a filthy mess? Here in Cork there are quite a few travellers sites and every site I have seen has been a shambles. It just doesn't seem to fit in with the cleaning thing.

 

[weepiper]

Yeah but his name's Patrick, not Padraig

Just like mine is still Elizabeth not Eilish even in Ireland

that's not the same, because Elizabeth and Eilish do not sound the same. Patrick and Padraig sound identical, they are just different ways of spelling the same thing.

e2a I think you're thinking of Paraig (with an accent on the first a, don't know how to do them) which does sound different

 

[Mooncat]

As an Aldershot resident I have had all the contact I need with Irish travelers.

You must mean the site down in Ash then? Maybe our paths have crossed

 

[DotCommunist]

sorry, I was making a rather tasteless IRA reference

 

[Wookey]

Patrick and Padraig sound identical, they are just different ways of spelling the same thing.

Patrick has a median unvoiced dental plosive, whereas Padraig's is voiced due to it's Gaelicisation.

 

[weepiper]

Patrick has a median unvoiced dental plosive, whereas Padraig's is voiced due to it's Gaelicisation.

no.

the way Gaelic orthography works demands that it's a 'd' in that position because it has an 'a' either side of it. It's still pronounced 't'. If it were spelt with a 't' it would be pronounced 'tch'

 

[lizzieloo]

that's not the same, because Elizabeth and Eilish do not sound the same. Patrick and Padraig sound identical, they are just different ways of spelling the same thing.

e2a I think you're thinking of Paraig (with an accent on the first a, don't know how to do them) which does sound different

I know.

But he spells his name Patrick, not Padraig

 

[weepiper]

I know.

But he spells his name Patrick, not Padraig

and why is that such a big deal?

 

[lizzieloo]

and why is that such a big deal?

that'll be you making it a big deal.

 

[Wookey]

no.

the way Gaelic orthography works demands that it's a 'd' in that position because it has an 'a' either side of it. It's still pronounced 't'. If it were spelt with a 't' it would be pronounced 'tch'

In my dialect, there's a d, but I'm speaking an Anglicised version of a previously Anglicised word (it used to be pronounced Coithric in early Irish Celtic dialects as they didn't have the sounds available for Patrick). In Gaelic dialects, I'm sure it can appear as an elided d, or not at all, giving Paw-rick, but the t unvoiced pronunication doesn't seem very common in Gaelic speakers I've heard.

 

[Stoat Boy]

There is one thing I don't get about Irish travellers, and would be grateful if someone could explain it. I know they have loads of cleaning taboos and rituals, and the inside of their caravans are spotless. So how come their camps are always a filthy mess? Here in Cork there are quite a few travellers sites and every site I have seen has been a shambles. It just doesn't seem to fit in with the cleaning thing.

Every time I have seen traveller sites in southern England I have always found the same thing as well. A mate in the old bill tells me that when ever he has to venture onto a traveller site he has to make sure his boots are throughly washed afterwards because of the amount of human excrement that is on the ground.

 

[weepiper]

that'll be you making it a big deal.

fine, you're right I'm wrong, I clearly am not allowed an opinion on anything in this place anymore and I think it's time I took a breather from U75 for a bit.

 

[lizzieloo]

fine, you're right I'm wrong, I clearly am not allowed an opinion on anything in this place anymore and I think it's time I took a breather from U75 for a bit.

I don't think you're wrong about the name Patrick/Padraig, it is pronounced the same way, he just happened to use the first spelling.

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

fine, you're right I'm wrong, I clearly am not allowed an opinion on anything in this place anymore and I think it's time I took a breather from U75 for a bit.

or just go at the pedants and ignore them