Musicians and US campaigners join Irish anti-water charges fray
- Thread starter Ld222
- Start date
Minnie_the_Minx
someinenhhanding menbag and me ah bollox
Whilst I was surprised years ago when I heard the Irish don't pay water rates, was shocked when this came in, not because it was, but because of the cost, and charging per person over 18, not per household. My friend's got 4 kids, 1 over 18 and only in part-time work, 1 in college, and the other two mid-teens, and considering the lack of work over there...
Then someone else is getting hammered over new rules re: work vehicles etc. but can't remember what that's about
rekil
to menny cranks
Ultimately the aim is to privatize the water supply. The winning companies will tend to withhold investment in favour of shovelling cash into share dividends and ratcheting up the bills. Unemployment figures have been diddled by forcing people onto shit workfare schemes, net emigration is about 20k/30k a year and suicides and homelessness numbers are through the roof.Whilst I was surprised years ago when I heard the Irish don't pay water rates, was shocked when this came in, not because it was, but because of the cost, and charging per person over 18, not per household. My friend's got 4 kids, 1 over 18 and only in part-time work, 1 in college, and the other two mid-teens, and considering the lack of work over there...
Then someone else is getting hammered over new rules re: work vehicles etc. but can't remember what that's about
Minnie_the_Minx
someinenhhanding menbag and me ah bollox
Yeah, have read about all the suicides
coley
Well-Known Member
Didn't know they were going to privatise it, thought it was about bringing water and sewerage up to decent levels?
rekil
to menny cranks
Yeah, this is the expectation, the same as elsewhere when the IMF gets involved.
Former minister who set up Irish Water says ‘forces’ at work to privatise company
coley
Well-Known Member
Are the protests against a possible privatisation or simply agains water charges in general?
rekil
to menny cranks
This deserves a detailed response but I can't speak for everyone and it's late, but for now I'll just say that around here (where Labour topped the poll in 2011 by campaigning against austerity and water charges but came 5th behind a freeman of the land loon in a by election last year lol) it's the water charges first and foremost, but there's a general understanding that privatisation is an inevitable outcome and privatisation ultimately means funnelling cash upwards and the degradation of services and work conditions, as we've experienced with refuse collection. On top of everything else, people just cannot afford more bills. It's about more than water charges. It's about the cumulative effects of social inequality which have accelerated over the last 6 years.
rekil
to menny cranks
The gas board which Irish water was set up as a subsidiary of, and forestry but I dunno if that's going ahead now.
coley
Well-Known Member
Just curious as the whether they had tried the same crap on you as they did in Greece?
rekil
to menny cranks
I could do with a decent comparative study tbh. Lots of cuts yes.
Ld222
Active Member
From The Workers Solidarity Movement (Ireland) Facebook page.
Sometimes the media don't do a very good job of hiding their agenda. Wednesday's mass protest against water charges in Dublin city centre was a prime example. While anyone who was present could see that this was one of the biggest demonstrations in recent times, despite being on a workday afternoon in the middle of winter, the media tried to downplay the numbers.
While initially, the Garda press office said it wouldn't be releasing an estimate of the crowd numbers, within the hour, it backtracked, and said gave a number of 30,000 "plus". Of course, that is technically correct, the crowd did number over thirty thousand, but citing that figure insinuates that there might have been one or two thousand more, not the massive numbers that people who experienced the demo for themselves witnessed. It was as if they plucked a number out of the air.
Most of the media mentioned that the protest organisers estimated 100,000 in attendance but also that the Garda press office had put the numbers in and around 30,000, without further comment. If they really wanted to report the truth, they could have, because it was clear to any observer who was present that the Garda figure was a gross underestimation. You could compare this to reports of anti-choice rallies, where the media have unquestioningly reported the overblown estimates of the organisers. One such rally, at Merrion square in January 2013 was reported as having between 25,000 and 40,000 in various news sources, as you will see below, that number wasn't physically possible. It's a good ilustration of the bias in the media.
The worst example of figure fudging appeared on the Irish Times website on Wednesday night, when journalist, Ronan McGreevy attempted to coroborate the Garda figure by using an app called CrowdSize. His estimate came to 32,000. It all looked very plausable, if you weren't there. The problem with McCreevy's use of the app, was that he only filled a fraction of the ground that was covered by protesters, the area around Merrion Square west, where the stage was. It is possible that he didn't move from that area, but it wouldn't have been too difficult to see that Merrion Square south was also full of protesters. That was the area that the anti-choice rally didn't even fill over a year ago that media sources claimed 25,000 people filled.
As you can see from the photo, CrowdSize estimates that just over 19,000 people can fit in that area. I was on that side distributing leaflets for about twenty minutes at the start of the demo, and as I was leaving to move over to the other side, it was almost full, with more local groups still marching in. I went ahead and ran the app for all the areas I covered on foot during the day and only what I could actually see with the naked eye. Later I believe, there were people on the other sides of Merrion Sq and inside it. Because I didn't see the volume I've left them out. I also don't know how far Westland Row the crowd went so it stops short at my field of vision.
When I was on Nassau St I took a shortcut up to Molesworth st through the side of the Kilkenny shop, so there I've only included as far as the eye could see, but I believe that went all the way around to college green, so that could easily be 5,000 or more extra. Also from photos I saw it looked like there were several thousand who turned back and occupied O'Connell Bridge and street. The photos were taken around the time I was on Nassau street, so they couldn't have been the same people.
Overall, the estimate I got from running CrowdSize on the areas I covered was around 65,000, and given what others have told me about numbers in areas I didn't cover, the attendance had to have been in excess of 80,000 at the very least.
https://www.facebook.com/WorkersSol...140/1021597574532722/?type=1&relevant_count=1
The crowdsize estimate 1 person for 4ft sq/1.2m sq. So you could easily multiply the figure by 4.
Sometimes the media don't do a very good job of hiding their agenda. Wednesday's mass protest against water charges in Dublin city centre was a prime example. While anyone who was present could see that this was one of the biggest demonstrations in recent times, despite being on a workday afternoon in the middle of winter, the media tried to downplay the numbers.
While initially, the Garda press office said it wouldn't be releasing an estimate of the crowd numbers, within the hour, it backtracked, and said gave a number of 30,000 "plus". Of course, that is technically correct, the crowd did number over thirty thousand, but citing that figure insinuates that there might have been one or two thousand more, not the massive numbers that people who experienced the demo for themselves witnessed. It was as if they plucked a number out of the air.
Most of the media mentioned that the protest organisers estimated 100,000 in attendance but also that the Garda press office had put the numbers in and around 30,000, without further comment. If they really wanted to report the truth, they could have, because it was clear to any observer who was present that the Garda figure was a gross underestimation. You could compare this to reports of anti-choice rallies, where the media have unquestioningly reported the overblown estimates of the organisers. One such rally, at Merrion square in January 2013 was reported as having between 25,000 and 40,000 in various news sources, as you will see below, that number wasn't physically possible. It's a good ilustration of the bias in the media.
The worst example of figure fudging appeared on the Irish Times website on Wednesday night, when journalist, Ronan McGreevy attempted to coroborate the Garda figure by using an app called CrowdSize. His estimate came to 32,000. It all looked very plausable, if you weren't there. The problem with McCreevy's use of the app, was that he only filled a fraction of the ground that was covered by protesters, the area around Merrion Square west, where the stage was. It is possible that he didn't move from that area, but it wouldn't have been too difficult to see that Merrion Square south was also full of protesters. That was the area that the anti-choice rally didn't even fill over a year ago that media sources claimed 25,000 people filled.
As you can see from the photo, CrowdSize estimates that just over 19,000 people can fit in that area. I was on that side distributing leaflets for about twenty minutes at the start of the demo, and as I was leaving to move over to the other side, it was almost full, with more local groups still marching in. I went ahead and ran the app for all the areas I covered on foot during the day and only what I could actually see with the naked eye. Later I believe, there were people on the other sides of Merrion Sq and inside it. Because I didn't see the volume I've left them out. I also don't know how far Westland Row the crowd went so it stops short at my field of vision.
When I was on Nassau St I took a shortcut up to Molesworth st through the side of the Kilkenny shop, so there I've only included as far as the eye could see, but I believe that went all the way around to college green, so that could easily be 5,000 or more extra. Also from photos I saw it looked like there were several thousand who turned back and occupied O'Connell Bridge and street. The photos were taken around the time I was on Nassau street, so they couldn't have been the same people.
Overall, the estimate I got from running CrowdSize on the areas I covered was around 65,000, and given what others have told me about numbers in areas I didn't cover, the attendance had to have been in excess of 80,000 at the very least.
https://www.facebook.com/WorkersSol...140/1021597574532722/?type=1&relevant_count=1
The crowdsize estimate 1 person for 4ft sq/1.2m sq. So you could easily multiply the figure by 4.
rekil
to menny cranks
From section 24 of the IMF document on bailout conditions.
Full cost recovery can be construed as being a fancypants way of saying eventual privatisation.
coley
Well-Known Member
And provision of welfare services cut to the bare minimum.
Whilst I was surprised years ago when I heard the Irish don't pay water rates, was shocked when this came in, not because it was, but because of the cost, and charging per person over 18, not per household. My friend's got 4 kids, 1 over 18 and only in part-time work, 1 in college, and the other two mid-teens, and considering the lack of work over there...
Then someone else is getting hammered over new rules re: work vehicles etc. but can't remember what that's about
But if you are going to charge for water (not saying that bringing in this measure was right - but just if you are going to levy a charge) then short of having meters creating an exemption for kids and charging per adult would surely be a fairer way to do it than per household - why should a single person pay the same as a couple when they're clearly going to use less water?
Ld222
Active Member
This Isn't Just About The Water - Stephen Murphy
"With everything going on on this island, it feels like the cronyism behind Irish Water is the final straw for the Irish people, & about time too, but the last couple of months have given me a massive amount of hope for the future of our country. We've come together in a way that I have never seen happen before, & I've been honoured to have the chance to be a part what's happened & to have a chance to meet & speak with people from all walks of life in the process."
"With everything going on on this island, it feels like the cronyism behind Irish Water is the final straw for the Irish people, & about time too, but the last couple of months have given me a massive amount of hope for the future of our country. We've come together in a way that I have never seen happen before, & I've been honoured to have the chance to be a part what's happened & to have a chance to meet & speak with people from all walks of life in the process."
Ld222
Active Member
From WSM (Ireland)
"Great video report from the huge anti-Water Charges demonstration on December 10th.
'You know that Scrooge has a ghost who comes to visit him. Well, he has the ghost of the Present, and he has the ghost of the Past, and we're standing here because we're the ghost of your Future. Detroit is the ghost of the future. And what they are trying to shove down your throats: do not accept it.' - Shamayim Shu, Detroit Water Brigade, addressing the crowd on Wednesday.
---
In other water charges news, the Seanad is due to vote on the Water Services Bill next week. The vote will be close and it's possible the bill will be voted down, which would delay its passing by 3 months."
"Great video report from the huge anti-Water Charges demonstration on December 10th.
'You know that Scrooge has a ghost who comes to visit him. Well, he has the ghost of the Present, and he has the ghost of the Past, and we're standing here because we're the ghost of your Future. Detroit is the ghost of the future. And what they are trying to shove down your throats: do not accept it.' - Shamayim Shu, Detroit Water Brigade, addressing the crowd on Wednesday.
---
In other water charges news, the Seanad is due to vote on the Water Services Bill next week. The vote will be close and it's possible the bill will be voted down, which would delay its passing by 3 months."
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