Summat you won't read in your super soaraway Social Worker....
Most firefighters think the SWP/ruc (Wespec') is a load of ole bollocks
- Thread starter ernestolynch
- Start date
Oh I didn't. Didn't really fancy it to be honest. You know...with the Stasi and all that. I also didn't see East Germans running to defend the 'workers state' from the nasty westerners in 1990ish. Not sure why though - after all, socialism had been achieved, hadn't it? I want real socialism, not socialism where the workers are exploited and have no right to organise in their own defence.
don't tell me you've been taking him seriously this whole time!!mattkidd12 said:
Liberal CIA propagand.
.districtline
Well-Known Member
mattkidd12 said:
suprisingly many of them did when i spend the last autumn in east berlin.
And your experience is what Matthew? Reading the ffycin Daily Mail?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
You a trot matt?
districtline
Well-Known Member
people see it a bit differently now after 15 years of capitalism. seems like it wasnt so easy after all.
I thought I smelled finger lickin' chicken...
districtline
Well-Known Member
there was a huge photo exhibition with pics of people tearing the wall down this autumn at potsdamer platz in berlin. people with hammers and other stuff trying to get through.
highly interesting (and entertaining) to see that there was grafitti on all the pics that were being shown.
there was no graffiti on the eastern side of the wall.
highly interesting (and entertaining) to see that there was grafitti on all the pics that were being shown.
there was no graffiti on the eastern side of the wall.
districtline
Well-Known Member
how much time have you spent in east germany? do you know many east germans?
are you aware of which party's the largest in east berlin? you do know that it's the formerly ruling party in the ddr, dont you?
are you aware of which party's the largest in east berlin? you do know that it's the formerly ruling party in the ddr, dont you?
sevenstars
citizen army
I seem to remember all other political parties where banned under the old regime.
So what? I'd ffycin ban Fascist/Tory/Trot/Liberal parties in the morning. Besides - the BRD banned the German Communist Party.
sevenstars
citizen army
ernestolynch said:
districtline
Well-Known Member
sevenstars said:
so whats your point in this case? the people who's actually lived under both regimes are voting for the PDS, the 'reformed' version of the SED. interesting.
wasn't there some kind of social democratic party being founded sometime during the 80's?
ern's point is worth being stressed, the BRD did ban the communist party.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
So what does 'reformed' mean - it doesn't mean they're arguing for the imposition of the old GDR state does it - by fucking definition it doesn't - to assume that they are is the crassest of polemeical tricks. People wanting a measure of stability in their lifes should never translate into support for authoritarian regimes or politics. Never.
Let's see how this approach translates across to people voting BNP in working class areas in this country, as they're the only people who turn up and take notice of their needs (however superficial this committment is) . In that case the argument would be made that a wanky group is using those working class needs to make political progress, that it's attempting to ride on the back of those working class needs to their own ends. But try this elsewhere and this is out of the window - in that case it the politics of the Parties themselves that have somehow something to offer.
Fucking pathetic.
Let's see how this approach translates across to people voting BNP in working class areas in this country, as they're the only people who turn up and take notice of their needs (however superficial this committment is) . In that case the argument would be made that a wanky group is using those working class needs to make political progress, that it's attempting to ride on the back of those working class needs to their own ends. But try this elsewhere and this is out of the window - in that case it the politics of the Parties themselves that have somehow something to offer.
Fucking pathetic.
sevenstars
citizen army
districtline said:
Jog on, trot.
Marx said that socialism would be achieved through the "self-emancipation of the working classes". Yet although the GDR was formed top-down, by the world's superpowers, it was still socialist. Marx was obviously wrong then. Socialism can be achieved through imposing it on people from above.
mattkidd12 said:
This subject is discussed in more depth in the 'SWP rejoices that Russians face a life of Poverty' thread.
Much of the Trot left -and the SWP in particular- refuse to do anything more than recite bland brainless mantras about the Communist countries never having been 'real socialism.' (As if they own the copyright on socialism.) It all stems from their obligation to claim that the Communist -ruled countries had nothing to do with the Leninism that is so much at the centre of their raison d'etre. When, in actual fact, Leninism had everything to do with the way those countries were.
If in doubt ask any moderately educated citizen of one of the ex - Communist countries. You'll find that the old Trot excuse that those people never had the opportunity to read what Lenin really said simply isn't true.
mattkidd12 said:
In which case, how do you justify your support for an organisation that subordinates the 'self-emancipation of the working classes' to the creation of an elite 'vanguard of the class' which, wherever attempted, has never been able to avoid quickly becoming 'separate and apart from the working class.'?
Socialism can indeed, as history proves, be 'imposed on people from above.' Because, like it or not, East Germany was indeed a socialist society of a kind. When they compare it to life in the united Germany, the people who grew up there certainly think so. Private property and the profit motive had been abolished for a start.
Whether this top down state socialism is a particularly desirable socialism is another matter. But it sure wasn't capitalism.
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