Misogynist barbarians in Alabama impose forced pregnancy law

[stdP]

She may have had a sense of wanting to warn of the potential for this development, but predict it?
When the book was published (1985) did any of this seem so close?

As Yuwipi Woman posted above, having things like a credit card was only something that women in the US got in the 70s (I dunno if it's in the TV series as I haven't seen it, but one of the first thing to happen in Gilead is that all the credit cards and bank accounts with an "F" are flagged as unusable and the funds transferred to next male kin IIRC, making women reliant on men to provide for them - whether this was Yuwipi Woman's point or Atwood's is academic I think).

Various parts and populations of the US has been trying to be an authoritarian theocracy for pretty much their entire history and when I first read Atwood in the 90s it certainly didn't seem like much of a stretch then. Toss in a little nuclear war and/or a fertility plague and you're there already.

 

[Nylock]

How did we lose this?

Because they relied on their lunatic fringe making it look so unlikely whilst simultaneously organising and filling key local and national positions of power for decades. By the time they were ready to rip the mask off and make their move, it was too late to stop them.

It's not too late for their opposite numbers to get similarly organised, but it is going to be a similar project that will take decades to accomplish and will require the same degree of determination, organisation and clear-eyed cynicism to realise.

Sadly, the far rightists had the unifying force of their religiosity to bind them together and maintain discipline. I'm not sure what common thread is going to hold together a disparate collection of liberals and secularists to maintain the same singular unity of purpose...

 

[story]

As Yuwipi Woman posted above, having things like a credit card was only something that women in the US got in the 70s (I dunno if it's in the TV series as I haven't seen it, but one of the first thing to happen in Gilead is that all the credit cards and bank accounts with an "F" are flagged as unusable and the funds transferred to next male kin IIRC, making women reliant on men to provide for them - whether this was Yuwipi Woman's point or Atwood's is academic I think).

Various parts and populations of the US has been trying to be an authoritarian theocracy for pretty much their entire history and when I first read Atwood in the 90s it certainly didn't seem like much of a stretch then. Toss in a little nuclear war and/or a fertility plague and you're there already.

We’ve got the fertility problem already. It‘s just the start but it’s real, and it’s worrying. Not all the contributing factors are known or understood but expect to hear more about this in coming years.

Reproductive Problems in Both Men and Women Are Rising at an Alarming Rate

A likely culprit is hormone-disrupting chemicals

www.scientificamerican.com

The Mystery of the Declining U.S. Birth Rate | Econofact

The U.S. birth rate has fallen by 20% since 2007. If sustained, this could impact economic growth, productivity, and social insurance programs down the line.

econofact.org

I‘ve given a link to an American report cos this thread is about America, but it’s actually a global issue. And it doesn’t appear to be just about “educated women have fewer children… family planning options lead to smaller families…” There’s something else going on too.


ETA
To pre- empt the inevitable refute posts…. Yes, social- economic factors are definitely driving this (also war, pandemic etc and so on), but there is an additional factor of diminishing fertility that is in there too.

 

[8ball]

We’ve got the fertility problem already. It‘s just the start but it’s real, and it’s worrying. Not all the contributing factors are known or understood but expect to hear more about this in coming years.

Reproductive Problems in Both Men and Women Are Rising at an Alarming Rate

A likely culprit is hormone-disrupting chemicals

www.scientificamerican.com

The Mystery of the Declining U.S. Birth Rate | Econofact

The U.S. birth rate has fallen by 20% since 2007. If sustained, this could impact economic growth, productivity, and social insurance programs down the line.

econofact.org

I‘ve given a link to an American report cos this thread is about America, but it’s actually a global issue. And it doesn’t appear to be just about “educated women have fewer children… family planning options lead to smaller families…” There’s something else going on too.


ETA
To pre- empt the inevitable refute posts…. Yes, social- economic factors are definitely driving this, but there is an additional factor of diminishing fertility that is in there too.

Multifactorial.

 

[story]

Multifactorial.

Fucksake.
When I wrote the ETA I nearly nearly said “to pre-empt 8ball’s inevitable response”

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I’m not understanding 8ball’s responses. Is he being a dick?

 

[story]

Multifactorial.

Yes yes etc,

Fertility is crashing and no one is sure why. The stats of this is currently being obscured to some degree by all the other factors. But it’s a real problem, no one yet knows what’s going on, and it’s not going away.

 

[8ball]

I’m not understanding 8ball’s responses. Is he being a dick?

I was just saying it’s a big thing to analyse and down to more things than there being something in the water that is turning the frogs gay.

 

[8ball]

Yes yes etc,

Fertility is crashing and no one is sure why. The stats of this is currently being obscured to some degree by all the other factors. But it’s a real problem, no one yet knows what’s going on, and it’s not going away.

I agree with you that there could be some environmental factors we’ve introduced which are having a bad effect.

It’s an environment with so many factors changing at the same time that it’s very hard to pin things down, but it’s not a great stretch to think there could be some set of chemicals we’ve introduced that is having a serious effect.

 

[story]

I was just saying it’s a big thing to analyse and down to more things than there being something in the water that is turning the frogs gay.

You do a really good job of grinding every discussion into a dead end. It’s really dull and counterproductive.

At least Butchers had some clout behind his argument

 

[story]

I agree with you that there could be some environmental factors we’ve introduced which are having a bad effect.

Thats a hypothesis.
No one knows what’s going on.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I was just saying it’s a big thing to analyse and down to more things than there being something in the water that is turning the frogs gay.

Oh right. I think I’ve missed that whole thread of argument and I’m a bit tipsy tbh. But forming opposition to this in any way isn’t a hill I’d want to die on.

 

[story]

Thats a hypothesis.
No one knows what’s going on.

We have only just started noticing that it’s actual fertility that’s diminishing on top of all the many other social ecenomic political stuff.

 

[tim]

Yes yes etc,

Fertility is crashing and no one is sure why. The stats of this is currently being obscured to some degree by all the other factors. But it’s a real problem, no one yet knows what’s going on, and it’s not going away.

Is it a real problem? People worrying about others' fertility and wanting to control it in one way or another seems to be a much bigger one.

 

[8ball]

Is it a real problem? People worrying about others' fertility and wanting to control it in one way or another seems to be a much bigger one.

Probably something for another thread given the gravity of the main issue under discussion.

 

[story]

Anyway, setting aside the science of the fertility stuff.
The fact remains that fertility is a problem, and probably a growing one.

The only reason it’s germaine to the current discussion is in the way it might be affected by today’s news. IVF, fertility clinics, socio- economic birth rates (will the poor give up their children for adoption by the rich?) etc will all be affected.

 

[story]

Overturning Roe could have major repercussions for IVF treatments, fertility experts warn

News that the Supreme Court is on the cusp of overturning Roe v. Wade is sounding alarms for an unexpected part of the population: people looking to get pregnant and the doctors who are helping them.

edition.cnn.com

 

[stdP]

We’ve got the fertility problem already. It‘s just the start but it’s real, and it’s worrying. Not all the contributing factors are known or understood but expect to hear more about this in coming years.

Without wanting to derail the thread to much in to parallels, I've just skimmed my copy again and the main cause of sterility were pollution and STDs (ecology had been a running theme throughout the 70s and HIV/AIDS being especially infamous by 1985 I imagine).

The reasons for falling fertility and/or birthrate are certainly manifold (and I expect a lot of people think that economically they can't afford kids) but naturally you have the racist nutters convinced that it's all some plot (probably one by Mexican Jew-Lizards) to be outbred by little brown people, and I suspect they're a strong contingent of the "force women to have babies!!!" morons.

 

[story]

I think the point is that we’re now off the edge of the map.
We have no idea how this is going to play out. Hopefully, not as badly as we fear.

 

[8ball]

The only reason it’s germaine to the current discussion is in the way it might be affected by today’s news. IVF, fertility clinics, socio- economic birth rates (will the poor give up their children for adoption by the rich?) etc will all be affected.

Can see where you’re going with that.
All sorts of unforeseen and obv unintentional scenarios could emerge.

 

[Raheem]

As Yuwipi Woman posted above, having things like a credit card was only something that women in the US got in the 70s

That's the same as in the UK, fwiw.

 

[story]

Can see where you’re going with that.
All sorts of unforeseen and obv unintentional scenarios could emerge.

That’s the thing. The ignorance, the profound stupidity that has driven this outcome also infects every other part of their thinking and therefore policy.

They may have An Idea, some Plan being driven by their ideology but they have no clue what they’ve triggered or even unleashed.

 

[8ball]

That's the same as in the UK, fwiw.

Ignorance on my part, but I thought that was roughly when credit cards came into existence.

 

[Dystopiary]

Is their a racist angle to pro-life? Do some of them think that it's OK for white women to have an out of state abortion, and they're hoping that the law will only really affect black women who can't afford it?

It will disproportionately affect poorer women, and Black women/women of colour are statistically more likely to be living in poverty.

Not sure which thread it was where someone (Yuwipi Woman maybe?) posted some sobering information about children being adopted with cynical motives involving money and I think religious fundamentalism.

 

[8ball]

That’s the thing. The ignorance, the profound stupidity that has driven this outcome also infects every other part of their thinking and therefore policy.

They may have An Idea in mind, some Plan being driven by their ideology but they have no clue what they’ve triggered or even unleashed.

Hopefully something that bites them first.
But yeah, no way of telling.

 

[story]

Hopefully something that bites them first.
But yeah, no way of telling.

I fear that the undertow is strong.

We’re caught in a cross- current now. It‘ll play out now, I think.

 

[Raheem]

Ignorance on my part, but I thought that was roughly when credit cards came into existence.

1960s in the UK, possibly earlier in the US.

In the UK, unmarried women couldn't generally get them, and married women needed their husband's signature.

 

[8ball]

I fear that the undertow is strong.

We’re caught in a cross- current now. It‘ll play out now, I think.

I think there is a strong majority in the US who oppose this, as has been discussed. And there is a growing contempt for
SCotUS. The democratic feedback mechanisms don’t seem to line up in a way that could lead to a swift correction, though (to my knowledge, other posters will know better than me on this).

In the meantime there will be a lot of practical support for women who need to cross state lines. Some nasty reaction to that too.

 

[8ball]

1960s in the UK, possibly earlier in the US.

In the UK, unmarried women couldn't generally get them, and married women needed their husband's signature.

Thanks - yeah, been looking it up a bit myself. An assortment of credit devices going back to the 19th Century, with a lot of the main take-up in the mid 20th it seems.

Compared to a lot of rights, not that much delay between the sexes.

 

[8ball]

I’m not understanding 8ball’s responses. Is he being a dick?

Also, yeah, on reflection I wasn’t being very productive, I was mostly reacting to what seemed v much like a tangent.

Sorry.