'Middle Class' it's basically just a construct isn't it...

[Santino]

You're making sense of Cameron's life backwards. Clearly, lots of good things happened for him for him to become Prime Minister (although I'd actually put it rather differently - for him to have turned out like he did, clearly lots of bad things must have happened).

But there is only a sense of inevitability to these things when you read them backwards. Everything happened for a reason, so it all makes perfect sense. But who knows what would have happened if some of those things had been different? All we can say is that Cameron had a lot of breaks in his life as a result of his family's wealth, which made possible the steps he took to become PM. But of course, we can look at the lives of every prime minister and see the steps and breaks they had. We can say with absolute confidence that every prime minister Britain has ever had benefited from good breaks. We already knew that before looking, of course - look at a successful person and you'll find reasons for their success. Of course.

You don't need to take me as literally as weltweit does.

 

[weltweit]

What it does mean is that a majority of Eton and Oxbridge-educated persons with similar connections, status and social capital as Cameron will be more likely to have a greater degree of success in their lives than those who don't share those connections etc.

Personally I am not in favour of public school in the main though there are some arguments for them which are interesting. But it does interest me that so many political leaders were educated that way, and it also interests me that the public, who in the main did not go to private schools, repeatedly vote them into power.

It reminds me of a piece in Stephen Fry's book where he is in prison and a prisoner approaches him and says - it just isn't right, someone like you, in here, just isn't right! - what a strange thing to think.

What's the basis of those connections? Membership of a particular stratum of class.

I think that is to oversimplify a bit. My understanding is that an education at Eton is actually quite rigorous and at Oxbridge also the quality of education is good. So these people have apart from a certain class, a very good education.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You don't get it. You can't escape class. Even if you manage to convince yourself of the irrelevance of it, you can't exist without it affecting you, and you affecting it.

you're right, of course, but I don't see anything wrong with ww's attitude, tbh. Where I don't agree with other posters is the idea that thinking about class necessarily helps people. A bit of naivety might actually do them some favours.

When other people's shitty class attitudes affect you, clearly you have to think about it. But otherwise, what difference does it make? WW needs a job. Does thinking about class make getting a job easier? I would suggest that it doesn't.

 

[Pickman's model]

you're right, of course, but I don't see anything wrong with ww's attitude, tbh. Where I don't agree with other posters is the idea that thinking about class necessarily helps people. A bit of naivety might actually do them some favours.

When other people's shitty class attitudes affect you, clearly you have to think about it. But otherwise, what difference does it make? WW needs a job. Does thinking about class make getting a job easier? I would suggest that it doesn't.

your simplistic thinking about class certainly wouldn't help anyone get a job.

 

[Santino]

Thank fuck for that. I'm literally fed up of telling people that it's helpful, on an individual basis, for people to think about class. I'm glad I can lay that particular activity to rest.

It's been an albatross around my neck, if I'm honest.

 

[Pickman's model]

Thank fuck for that. I'm literally fed up of telling people that it's helpful, on an individual basis, for people to think about class. I'm glad I can lay that particular activity to rest.

It's been an albatross around my neck, if I'm honest.

there's other similarities with the ancient mariner if you want to go down that path

 

[Santino]

there's other similarities with the ancient mariner if you want to go down that path

Going to a wedding?

 

[Santino]

I did once a stately pleasure dome decree, but that's another story.

 

[Pickman's model]

Going to a wedding?

i'll let you think about it overnight.

 

[Captain Hurrah]

I'd rather know how class affects me, than some crap promoting the supposed bliss of ignorance. Why shouldn't I know how and why the behaviour of another class is affecting me every day?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

your simplistic thinking about class certainly wouldn't help anyone get a job.

I have helped quite a few people get jobs in the past. There are lots of things I can do to help people get work. Few of them involve reminding the person of their class origins.

TBh telling ww he should be thinking about class in his efforts to get a job is patronising and faintly ridiculous. I don't know what line of work he's in, but I'm sure he knows more about expected modes of behaviour in his job than any of us do.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'd rather know how class affects me, than some crap promoting the supposed bliss of ignorance. Why shouldn't I know how and why the behaviour of another class is affecting me every day?

I would as well. But I wouldn't go around telling others they should.

 

[Pickman's model]

I have helped quite a few people get jobs in the past. There are lots of things I can do to help people get work. Few of them involve reminding the person of their class origins.

TBh telling ww he should be thinking about class in his efforts to get a job is patronising and faintly ridiculous. I don't know what line of work he's in, but I'm sure he knows more about expected modes of behaviour in his job than any of us do.

like a bloody doll, pull the string and it comes out 'can i help you sir?' and push a button and it's 'i'm sorry, we've misplaced your invoice. could you resend it please?' fucking 'expected modes of behaviour', nothing more than a somewhat refined version of pavlov's dog.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Different workplaces have different cultures. That is all I meant by that. It's a pretty obvious fact.

 

[Captain Hurrah]

I would as well. But I wouldn't go around telling others they should.

And particularly when told by someone else that class doesn't matter.

 

[Pickman's model]

Different workplaces have different cultures. That is all I meant by that. It's a pretty obvious fact.

workplace culture and expected modes of behaviour are two completely separate things.

 

[weltweit]

no scratch that ...

 

[littlebabyjesus]

workplace culture and expected modes of behaviour are two completely separate things.

To clarify, by 'modes of behaviour', I was referring specifically to workplace culture. You may replace the one with the other in your mind if that helps.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Personally I am not in favour of public school in the main though there are some arguments for them which are interesting. But it does interest me that so many political leaders were educated that way, and it also interests me that the public, who in the main did not go to private schools, repeatedly vote them into power.

Class dynamics.
Most of our political leaders, with a handful of honourable exceptions, were produced within a confined intellectual "space" within the class system because that's how power reproduces itself - through the generation and perpetuation of elites.
Those who vote, vote because it's the only game in town, and because they're encouraged to vote instrumentally, i.e. for the party that will most benefit themselves personally. People aren't encouraged to believe or realise that power resides in them, and is only usable by politicians etc because we cede control over our own power by electing them.

It reminds me of a piece in Stephen Fry's book where he is in prison and a prisoner approaches him and says - it just isn't right, someone like you, in here, just isn't right! - what a strange thing to think.

I think that is to oversimplify a bit. My understanding is that an education at Eton is actually quite rigorous and at Oxbridge also the quality of education is good. So these people have apart from a certain class, a very good education.

Eton is no more or less rigourous than any private school. Its aim is to produce students who'll pass exams. As for Oxbridge, it's a network. You can get better degrees in many subjects from non-Oxbridge institutions. What you can't get is access to the networks that being an Oxbridge grad and originating from a certain sector of class gets you.

 

[ViolentPanda]

you're right, of course, but I don't see anything wrong with ww's attitude, tbh. Where I don't agree with other posters is the idea that thinking about class necessarily helps people. A bit of naivety might actually do them some favours.

When other people's shitty class attitudes affect you, clearly you have to think about it. But otherwise, what difference does it make? WW needs a job. Does thinking about class make getting a job easier? I would suggest that it doesn't.

Probably not, but if he goes for a job and the manager says "Cambridge or Oxford?" and he subsequently doesn't get the job, he'll know why.

Class isn't really meant to "help". What it does is help inform you of why someone of a different class might add 2 + 2 and get 5 as the answer.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'd rather know how class affects me, than some crap promoting the supposed bliss of ignorance. Why shouldn't I know how and why the behaviour of another class is affecting me every day?

Quite. If you know, then you may be able to do something about it, and even if you can't directly do anything about class prejudice, you can still go and smash the windows of a Roller.

 

[Riklet]

*subscribes/deckchair*

just read the whole thread and it's far too late here to post a reply, but will try at some point. some of the best points (combined with some of the most stupid ones), makes me miss reading urban more!

been having these frustrating arguments recently with people of the opinion that in terms of individuals, we all have equal chance of social success etc. in a kinda abstract sense I guess? if it wasn't for the huge socio-economic context which shapes and determines that chance i guess i would see their point!

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

But the term 'middle-class' actually refers to social transformations that go back to medieval times. The middle-class were the first urban class, neither aristocrat nor peasant, those that made their living from the towns, and since inception squeezed from the bottom and the top. Insecure, materialistic, future-preferential in forever working toward some future heaven (puritan influence there that still persist). There's quite a lot more that goes into the whole middle class thing than I'd realized actually.

Classes change. Adam Smith's shopkeeper isn't today's. Same as the artisans and craftsmen you allude to in that strata, which was a 'transient class'. Doctors for example are often confused as being middle-class just because they were a century ago (only some probably are today).

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

A couple of notes on marxian class definition.
From the economic standpoint, in order to be regarded as 'petit-bourgeois', in the classical sense, an individual needs to own sufficient capital to subsist on otherwise it doesn't make sense. Means of subsistence is the basic yardstick.

However, in terms of defining middle-class we should ask "who are they a class against?", in other words what relations make them antagonistic to which group(s) of people. This is why, imo, structural analysis (i.e Nico Poulantzas) helps shed clarity. Our definitions need to serve a purpose. In capitalist society class structure is always changing, categories aren't so immutable and fixed. So, for example, does the bourgeoisie really include all wealthy capitalists or, rather, only those with a degree of access to power that isn't simply the power they derive from ownership?
Obviously monopoly capitalists are bourgeois, but many other wealthy capitalists are, in my view, more aptly petit-bourgeois.

 

[Random]

lol, poor old wealthy capitalists with no access to power. What planet do you live on, ibid? And why do you want to get rid of clarity?

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

Touche, Random.

There are millionaire business owners who I would regard as middle class as someone in corporate management for the reasons given. They are propertied capitalists but have about the same closeness/distance to political power. They're still small fry in the scheme of things.

 

[redsquirrel]

Figures were from Doug Henwood's book After the New Economy and covered the US in 1998 (book published 2003) - i expect things have got even worse since. Basically they showed how many months each household quintile could exist at their current level of spendings and how long they could exist spending at 125% of the poverty line on savings alone (first number is current, second is at 125%)

Richest 25.5 - 81.5
Second Richest 8.2 - 18.4
Middle 2.2 - 3.4
Second Poorest 0.1 - 0.1
Poorest 0 - 0

Just to come back to this for a second, does it have any figures on how this has changed since the war?

 

[Random]

There are millionaire business owners who I would regard as middle class as someone in corporate management for the reasons given. They are propertied capitalists but have about the same closeness/distance to political power. They're still small fry in the scheme of things.

First it was wealthy capitalists, now it's simply millionaires. Many people who own property have a million in assets, I agree they might still be small business owners, run a restaurant or something. However the political elite does still operate in the interests of small and medium business owners (and corporate executives, who are usually shareholders too), just usually without the day to day input of these small and medium capitalists and managers, as individuals.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

IMO that's 'wealthy'. A while ago the equivalent of the same people were the bourgeoisie no questions, which is an example of how their class composition has changed. Remember they might still run the same things, they just don't have the same status.

 

[JimW]

Just saw this from the Beijing Review which ties in a bit with what I was saying about the emerging Chinese middle class earlier: http://www.bjreview.com/quotes/txt/2011-09/05/content_387889.htm
That it's titled 'fostering a middle class' is interesting and fits my theory but then the article itself goes on to say most people reject the categorisation. There's the bit at the end about "an olive-shaped social structure, with the largest proportion of middle class and small scale on both ends, is the most stable" which fits that minimum buffer idea, but then the following paragraph show the mixed bag of measures they using to achieve this - more social provision and the market brought into more sectors.