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Michael Howard and Brixton

And the other thing i think is being forgotten here is that Pollys original article also at the end castigated all mainstream politicos for bigging up crime."Crime" is now becomeing merged into ASB.I think this is a particularly dangerous path to go down.Whilst "crimes" against the person/burglary etc are going down ASB is replacing it to give the Cops something to do and placate the so called "general public".
 
Gramsci said:
Whilst "crimes" against the person/burglary etc are going down ASB is replacing it to give the Cops something to do and placate the so called "general public".
At which point nonconformism becomes criminalised.

So we need more 'proper' crime to keep plod busy and prevent them from transforming into thought police?? ;) :p :eek:
 
hendo said:
I'd keep going but I think I've just heard my copy of 'Conservative Way Forward' come through the letter box.

Sorry, just had to rush to hospital for emergency surgery on my splitting sides. :rolleyes:
 
Mr BC said:
Sorry, just had to rush to hospital for emergency surgery on my splitting sides. :rolleyes:
I will bang your heads together in a minute. :p

I'm sorry Mr BC but if I were in your position I would be putting plenty of distance between myself and Michael Howard's frantic attempts to dig himself into a bigger and bigger hole.

Gravestone.jpg
 
IntoStella said:
I will bang your heads together in a minute. :p

'm sotrry Mr BC but if I were in your position i would be putting plenty distance between myself and Michael Howards; frantic attempts to dig himself into a bigger and bigger hole.

dave-gravestone.jpg

I've not defended Howard and seldom, if ever, do so on any subject.

My criticism was the suggestion of racism by Toynbee, which in my opinion, was intellectually lazy, dishonest and polemical.

Hendo's 'you're a tory therefore what do you know' quips are merely an irritant that I've grown well used to over the years.
 
Mr BC said:
I've not defended Howard and seldom, if ever, do so on any subject.

My criticism was the suggestion of racism by Toynbee, which in my opinion, was intellectually lazy, dishonest and polemical.

Hendo's 'you're a tory therefore what do you know' quips are merely an irritant that I've grown well used to over the years.
I have to say I do think there is an element of racism involved in any attempt to scaremonger about violent street crime in the highest-profile black area of Britain. Why not, say, Newcastle?

And Howard's claim that he couldn't be racist because the street pastors were black came across as ludicrously disingenuous, not to mention patronising. We have already established that the Street Pastors are a conservative group.

It's the same as black Republicans saying "Hey, the Republicans aren't racist -- look at me!" Some people will sell out their roots (whether in terms of race, class, gender or whatever) if they think they think it is going to get them the keys to the farm. The fact that the street pastors are evangelical Christians tells me more about them than the fact that they are black. And I don't like what I see.
 
However Mr BC the main parties are making the immigration/asylum seeker issue an election issue.Theirs been a short Radio series by an ex (right wing)Labour MP whose name I forget.He pointed out back in the late 60s/70s when Powell was trying to wipe up the issue of Race Heath refused to do so.The end result being that at the next election,on the doorstep it was not a major issue.
 
Ahem! I think this is looking dangerously like a thread that should be relegated to P&P. Can we keep on the subject of Brixton in some form and not just descend to slagging each other off?

I think BC's got a point though -it's not really racism it's simply lazy stereotyping of an area.
 
Bob said:
Ahem! I think this is looking dangerously like a thread that should be relegated to P&P. Can we keep on the subject of Brixton in some form and not just descend to slagging each other off?

I think BC's got a point though -it's not really racism it's simply lazy stereotyping of an area.
FFS! We ARE talking about Brixton and nobody is slagging anybody off. (Apart from BC and hendo but they love each other really;) ).

What do you want?

I bought some really nice shoes in Shoefayre the other day. They were only 35 quid and they're leather uppers and everything.... :rolleyes:
 
Gramsci said:
However Mr BC the main parties are making the immigration/asylum seeker issue an election issue.Theirs been a short Radio series by an ex (right wing)Labour MP whose name I forget.He pointed out back in the late 60s/70s when Powell was trying to wipe up the issue of Race Heath refused to do so.The end result being that at the next election,on the doorstep it was not a major issue.


You have a point with immigration and asylum where both parties are pandering to an unpleasant instinct in some parts of the electorate. Toynbee suggested that a tory merely going to Brixton was somehow playing the race card, which shows how very twisted the woman's own bigotry is.

Powell is an interesting point though (and, I confess, nothing to do wth Brixton). Heath sacked Powell and disowned him pretty violently (he hated his guts), but many commentators say Powell's racist intervention played heavily in the tories favour in the 1970 election. That was certainly an odd election, in which everyone expected Wilson to walk it - polls showed Labour leads of 8% the day before polling day. But the tories won pretty comfortably.
 
Bob said:
Ahem! I think this is looking dangerously like a thread that should be relegated to P&P. Can we keep on the subject of Brixton in some form and not just descend to slagging each other off?

I think BC's got a point though -it's not really racism it's simply lazy stereotyping of an area.

Cant see why this thread should be binned-seems OK to me.

Whilst Mr BC may be correct that Howard is not a racist that does not stop Howard pandering to the more right wing elements in his party and more importantly those fascists in blazers that form UKIP.
 
Gramsci said:
Cant see why this thread should be binned-seems OK to me.

Whilst Mr BC may be correct that Howard is not a racist that does not stop Howard pandering to the more right wing elements in his party and more importantly those fascists in blazers that form UKIP.

I agree. UKIP are mad and bad. Their actvities and activists would warrant some much closer inspection. It's also true that some lunatics in the tory party think we should pander to them. Madness.
 
Don't bin this thread! Mr BC and I snipe at each other as a way of expressing our long-standing affection.

(((Mr BC)))

:cool:
 
Mr BC said:
I agree. UKIP are mad and bad. Their actvities and activists would warrant some much closer inspection. Madness.
Getting rid of that lot must have been like lancing a particularly ugly and painful boil.
 
Mr BC said:
I've already answered why. sorry if the explanantion was too sophisticated. Persistent reading of the Guardian clearly numbs the brain.
that is really bitchy, unkind, and quite uncalled for! :mad:
 
hendo said:
Don't bin this thread! Mr BC and I snipe at each other as a way of expressing our long-standing affection. (((Mr BC))) :cool:
:D ((((mr BC)))) ((((hendo)))) ((((Lang rabbie))))) ((((The whole world)))) except )))))Bob((((. :p



Aww, not really. ((((((((((Bob))))))))))).
 
Mr BC said:
Powell is an interesting point though (and, I confess, nothing to do wth Brixton). Heath sacked Powell and disowned him pretty violently (he hated his guts), but many commentators say Powell's racist intervention played heavily in the tories favour in the 1970 election. That was certainly an odd election, in which everyone expected Wilson to walk it - polls showed Labour leads of 8% the day before polling day. But the tories won pretty comfortably.

Not directly to do with Brixton but as Howard is using Brixton partly to raise his profile I think its OK to see how other Tory leaders dealt with some of these issues.The Radio programme was Walden remininsces(Brian Walden who was a right wing Labour MP before going into TV).I dont now enough about that period to agree whether Powell did make a difference.If he did then depressingly those in the Tory party want to go to the right may be correct.
 
IntoStella said:
:D ((((mr BC)))) ((((hendo)))) ((((Lang rabbie))))) ((((The whole world)))) except )))))Bob((((. :p



Aww, not really. ((((((((((Bob))))))))))).

((((((((((IS)))))))))))

:)
 
Mr BC said:
You have a point with immigration and asylum where both parties are pandering to an unpleasant instinct in some parts of the electorate. Toynbee suggested that a tory merely going to Brixton was somehow playing the race card, which shows how very twisted the woman's own bigotry is.
Did she? :confused: I thought she objected to not any old tory but the Leader of the Opposition going to Brixton to deliberately set off a huge, grotesque media circus about crime and law and order in the UK's most high-profile black area.

But then maybe over-exposure to Rubbisher's rag has numbed my brain too. ;)
 
IntoStella said:
Getting rid of that lot must have been like lancing a particularly ugly and painful boil.

Quite. I'd be more than happy to pay for the leaving parties of a few other should they wish to go the same way.
 
Red Jezza said:
that is really bitchy, unkind, and quite uncalled for! :mad:

Bitchy? Yep. Unkind? Not really. Uncalled for? Just in the spirit of the exchange. Hendo knows my views on 'Conservative Way Forward', so his quip was just as offensive to me.
 
Mr BC said:
Bitchy? Yep. Unkind? Not really. Uncalled for? Just in the spirit of the exchange. Hendo knows my views on 'Conservative Way Forward', so his quip was just as offensive to me.

Sorry Mr BC, didn't mean to be offensive, thought we were having little jokes.

(((MR BC)))
 
for my part, I thik Howard really does play the race card, and in a pretty shitty way. He's far too intellligent to not know that, in the eyes of the Tory core vote, and quite a few floating voters, Brixton = a)black and b)crime/trouble. To me he stereotyped the area, and played on the fears of gullible people. I think the cops etc got it right; progress has been made in Brixton, and he simply chose to ignore that for a cheap, quick headline. racist? dunno. cynical and opportunistic? yup, with knobs on.
 
I'm sorry Red Jezza, and all of you - very rude of me, deadline manners. Lovely to join the board - I think the website is fantastic and have enjoyed reading lots of the stuff on here :) . I hope you don't mind me soliciting letters but am very interested in your views.
 
Red Jezza said:
for my part, I thik Howard really does play the race card, and in a pretty shitty way. He's far too intellligent to not know that, in the eyes of the Tory core vote, and quite a few floating voters, Brixton = a)black and b)crime/trouble. To me he stereotyped the area, and played on the fears of gullible people. I think the cops etc got it right; progress has been made in Brixton, and he simply chose to ignore that for a cheap, quick headline. racist? dunno. cynical and opportunistic? yup, with knobs on.

How was Howard playing the race card? In your terms, Brixton is an area synonymous in the public mind with its black community. If there is a high crime rate in Brixton who are the victims of that, if not the people who live there?

In fact, in his conference speech, all he said was that he spent 2 hours in Brixton on a Saturday night and didn't see a single police officer. He went on to say, this is inner city London on a Saturday night and he saw no police officers.

It certainly is true that crime has fallen in Brixton in recent years, but we fall into the trap of accepting the subsisting level of crime as acceptable. 2 or 3 years ago the crime levels in Brixton (and everywhere else in Lambeth) were incerdible. The robbery rate had risen to levels never before imagined. There has been some improvement of that situation, but it is still unacceptable.

And, God, it hurts to defend Michael Howard (believe me it really does) but I think this particular charge on these particular grounds, is unfair and suggests more about the prejudices of those who make it than it does about his prejudices.
 
This one has legs...from today's Standard, quite a good article.

Simon Jenkins

WHEN MUGGERS RULE THE ROOST.

A friend was recently mugged by three men as he left work in the West End. He unwisely reacted to the first attacker by hitting him hard to the ground. The other two drew knives and told him he was 'dead'. A chase ensued. My friend ran fast and luckily escaped. The police later asked if he would give evidence against the one he had hit. He said no. The others knew where he worked. Pressing charges would be suicide.

The son of another friend was last week beaten up outside a Tube station by a group of youths, for no apparent reason other than that he was alone. He recognised one of his attackers as local. The police, summoned by a witness, duly asked him if he would give evidence against the youth. The boy said no. They knew where he lived. It would be madness.

What should the responsible citizen advise? Should my friends co-operate with the police, or should they look after their own skins?

The answer is buried in the strange disagreement this week between the Tory leader, Michael Howard, and his colleague Oliver Letwin over the safety of Brixton. To Mr Howard its streets were a lawless wilderness where he had walked for two hours and found not one policeman. To Mr Letwin they have been miraculously 'reclaimed for local people'. South London was a safer place, he declared, where burglary, robbery and graffiti were all down. On all sides, so he implied, beaming policemen were being kissed by happy passers-by.

A simple principle explains the dichotomy. Crime is not a statistic. It is as bad as anyoneÕs last victimisation. If a friend is mugged or a house burgled, crime is out of control. If we are set on by hooded youths marauding the high street, civilisation is collapsing faster than in Baghdad.

When I hear of such scenes in London I am with Mr Howard. When I see a policeman chatting to tourists in Piccadilly I am with Mr Letwin. It all depends on personal experience.

I am currently on Mr Howard's side. Street crime is a serious and growing menace in central London. There are now gangs, many from eastern Europe, targeting residents in well-heeled parts of town and preying on tourists. They act with virtual impunity for the simple reason that few are ever caught. More to the point, the police cannot offer serious protection to those who might help catch them.

This is not because of police shortage. It is because, on the latest figures, London's 30,000 police spend roughly half their time on office paperwork. Most of the rest is spent in courtrooms, cars and on motorbikes. More police are now on street patrol but they dare not walk alone, thus halving their effective deployment. Any stroll round the West End will reveal their absence from key corners and Tube exits.

If I have no expectation of finding a police officer in the vicinity, neither will the mugger. I am all for Òintelligence-led' policing and the new movement to localise London's police into ward teams. This may well improve clear-up rates. But the best deterrent to a street attack - as New York shows - is a Òcop on every blockÓ. By definition, a mugging implies the failure of such deterrence.

When the police arrive, their screaming car gives any attacker advance warning. They then expect witnesses, who may well know the culprits, to put their lives at risk to solve the crime their absence has precipitated. If the police will not deter criminals by patrolling LondonÕs streets, it is hard to expect ordinary citizens to cope with the consequences, with the threat of revenge on their heads and no local constable to offer protection.

I take most of London's rough and tumble for granted. Over the years things get better and things get worse. We mostly survive. But one thing is for sure. The withdrawal of police from street patrols into bureaucracy, mostly under Mr Howard and his Tory colleagues, destroyed public confidence in the safety of city centres - as did the drop of almost 1,500 officers in the MetÕs numbers in the mid-Nineties. These places were delivered over to drunks, vandals and gangs.

Yesterday, I happened to visit the scene of both muggings. There were no police anywhere in sight. The under-policing of the central West End, a national street-crime hotspot, was shocking. Yet I counted more than 100 police within 200 yards of Parliament Square, standing about and chatting while 100 crimes were probably being committed a mile to the north. This part of Westminster has, since Tony Blair came to power, looked like a banana republic in the aftermath of a coup. It is a display of warped priorities.

No, I will not tell my friends to risk a knife in the ribs to help the police meet a David Blunkett clear-up target. If police in armoured jackets will not take the same risks the rest of us take in walking about alone, they can hardly expect us to hazard all in their support.

Londoners are now hiring vigilantes, community support officers and private security guards to protect themselves and their property. This is not because there are not enough police. It is because the police are somewhere else, safe. As every police chief attests, it is notoriously difficult to get a modern constable out of his or her car. But cars do not deter.

In the past two years, more police have been allocated to street patrols, albeit still in pairs. They have decades of neglect to rectify and confidence to restore. Suburban town centres are still ruled by street gangs at night. Every neighbourhood echoes to the gossip of another street attack. As long as fear of the local villain outstrips love of the local police, witnesses will feel insecure. Until police get back on the streets they once controlled, people will be reluctant to join them in the battle against crime.
 
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