Mercury amalgam fillings - a poisoning of generations

[Giles]

I for one took Jazz's advice and gouged out my teeth with a pair of pliers. I've got blood over everything, I can no longer eat and i'm in horrific pain but at least the aliens can't get me

Good for you! Having read this, I have also taken a pair of pliers to my teeth. It doesn't hurt much at the moment, but that may be due to the ketamine.

Giles..

 

[madzone]

As I've always been in great health (apart from shattering bones) I think I'll leave them in for now.

Do you think there could be slight (um, whats the word) placebo(?) effect at having them taken out?

If your convinced they're causing you ill health, when they're gone you're bound to feel a lot better? Did all your health problems disappear when they were removed? Madzone as well.

If the placebo effect was able to make the drastic changes in my health that I've experienced since having the fillings removed then I think it was £700 well spent anyway. My health problems haven't all disappeared - I still react badly to heavy metals (and other chemicals) when I come into contact with them but now I'm not carrying them around in my head I'm at least able to be more careful about when that happens

 

[tarannau]

Of course there's a placebo effect. As an ex CFS/ME diagnosed sufferer I went through a period of trying to find any cause without great effect - eventually a new job, better attitude and change of scene seemed to contribute more to recovery than anything else. The placebo effect can be very, very effective - the mind's a powerful thing indeed.

I suspect that mercury has potential downsides but they're hardly as marked in the vast majority of individuals as these alarmist videos suggest. I'm also wary of supposedly independent organisations which recommend expensive (and potentially unnecessary) dental treatments that require further, equally expensive regular maintenance. It's a great business model - if I'm cynical about the medical establishment, I'm also equally cynical about organisations whose profitability largely benefits from worrying folks into costly action.

The only thing to bear in mind is that many of those who have had amalgam fillings removed don't miraculously recover. In fact my experience is that those who have their fillings removed move onto their next health scare - mobile phone radiation, water purity, wifi pollution etc.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

It's a great business model - if I'm cynical about the medical establishment, I'm also equally cynical about organisations whose profitability largely benefits from worrying folks into costly action

Don't you know that by using words like "holistic", "natural" and "alternative" it makes you different from any big bad "normal" business?

 

[story]

As I've always been in great health (apart from shattering bones) I think I'll leave them in for now.

Do you think there could be slight (um, whats the word) placebo(?) effect at having them taken out?

If your convinced they're causing you ill health, when they're gone you're bound to feel a lot better? Did all your health problems disappear when they were removed? Madzone as well.

A very quick glance into Google gave me a research paper that has made a link between calcium levels in the body, and mercury. This is no way a suggestion that your bone problem is associated with mercury, but it is an illustration of the fact that we really have very little certainty about anything. We are surrounded by questions.

Placebo is an amazing thing. We dismiss it far too readily. If someone gets better, then what does it matter if the improvment has been brought about by something intangible? If we could bottle and prescribe placebo, we'd have at leat 30% positive results (some studies show up to 70% improvements when placebo is given), and (in most cases) no side effects. Iatrogenic disease (disease caused by medicine) is on the increase, and accounts for something like 40-60% of all hospital admissions (depending on which report you look at).

Added to which, Allen Roses (worldwide vice-president of genetics with GlaxoSmithKline) has been quoted as saying "The vast majority of drugs - more than 90 per cent - only work in 30 or 50 per cent of the people". (Quoted in the the Independent in 2003) Go here for more

As I said, we are surrounded by questions. Even those who are paid to know, and paid to sell stuff to us, have questions and doubts. We do well to harbour similar doubts and questions.

I did not suddenly become invulnerable to illness when I had my amalgam fillings removed. But I did start to get ill less often, and less swiftly. Also, I felt less fatigued. I'm honour bound to add that, at the time I was having my fillings replaced, I was also going through a period of improving my diet and lifestyle generally. I cannot say with any certainty that it wasn't a coincidence that my health improved round that time. I am certain, however, that some specific symptoms and physical experiences changed swiflty and noticeably in the week following the removal of the first, "worst", amalgam filling.

 

[story]

Holism is hard science, as well as a philosophical concept

Someone earlier said that when they saw the word holistic or holism they heard "hippy bollox"

Holism is not simply hippy bollox.

 

[tufty79]

Our family dentist refuses to use mercury fillings anymore due to these health scares.

That's not the same as saying "Our family dentist refuses to use mercury fillings anymore because he's conducted thorough research, read all the reputable scientific papers and come to a rational decision", though, is it?

e2a: Fogbat posting

 

[spacemonkey]

A very quick glance into Google gave me a research paper that has made a link between calcium levels in the body, and mercury. This is no way a suggestion that your bone problem is associated with mercury, but it is an illustration of the fact that we really have very little certainty about anything. We are surrounded by questions.

Ahh no, you misunderstand. When I've broken bones they've been due to pretty heafty impacts. 17st bloke crushing me, basketball in the face etc... I don't think I actually have brittle bones!

I was trying to say my only health problems have been self-induced.

 

[axon]

anyway, in the absence of a single challenge on the source material from any poster, I shall have to declare a victory

Aha! We may be getting to the reason for your many posts on the dangers of everything from The Establishment. It's not so much about getting the truth and helping but more a personal crusade to demonstrate yourself as the True Voice Of Reason rallying against the evil corporations / government / shills/ scientists / Icke-ridiculers / Sheeple posters.

As for mercury in fillings, I watched the second video (that's 4 mins 20-odd seconds of my life you owe me Jazzz ), it was completely useless for the topic. It basically said if you put low amounts of mercury of neurones it's not good for them. It is not news that mercury is dangerous for cells, and the 'low' amount of mercury they used was not compared to the concentrations of mercury vapour that could come off of fillings. WTF is low??? millimolar, micromolar, nanomolar???

Anyway, I've no idea whether the mercury exposure from fillings is bad for you. Mercury as a substance is not so nice but it depends on the dose you receive. And I have no intention of spending my day researching the doses of mercury from fillings and comparing with toxic mercury doses.
To Jazzz, most things I argue with you about I do becuase I either know some background on the issue or can see the logical flaw in your case. This is different as I think it really would take a week of research for me to be in a position to agree or disagree with the proposition.

 

[Orang Utan]

I may have to have my first filling next week - what should I go for? A lead/asbestos composite?

 

[axon]

Holism is hard science, as well as a philosophical concept

Someone earlier said that when they saw the word holistic or holism they heard "hippy bollox"

Holism is not simply hippy bollox.

It is 99 % of the time I hear someone saying it, as opposed to the dictionary definition of holistic. It is usually followed up by the explanantion of "treating the whole body not just the parts or symptoms", which holistic practitioners clearly do not do.

 

[madzone]

Of course there's a placebo effect. As an ex CFS/ME diagnosed sufferer I went through a period of trying to find any cause without great effect - eventually a new job, better attitude and change of scene seemed to contribute more to recovery than anything else. The placebo effect can be very, very effective - the mind's a powerful thing indeed.

Are you saying that ME/CFS is all in the mind?

Seeing as no-one definitively knows what CFS/ME actually is maybe you were misdiagnosed with depression.

I'm diagnosed with ME/CFS but in actual fact have moderate multiple chemical sensitivity. And as for it being all in the mind I can suffer tremendous ill effects from something before I even know it's there. Maybe I'm psychic

 

[story]

It is 99 % of the time I hear someone saying it, as opposed to the dictionary definition of holistic. It is usually followed up by the explanantion of "treating the whole body not just the parts or symptoms", which holistic practitioners clearly do not do.

An odd statement. Upon what do you base this?

Not sure I see how this ^ definition of holism (treating the body as a whole, as more than a sum of its parts) is anything other than laudable. Unless, of course, you consider yourself to be a sack of interconnected mechanical systems and nothing more.

 

[Dubversion]

I may have to have my first filling next week - what should I go for? A lead/asbestos composite?

tin foil

 

[Sunray]

Mercury poisoning is incredibly harsh. It sends you mad then you die of a neurological problem.

The term mad hatter comes from the fact that mercury was used to clean top hats and hatters breathed it in. If it was such a problem, the western world would in a state of crisis as significant proportion of the polulation in the west have amalgam fillings.

I wonder if you've been at the mercury again Jazzz?

 

[story]

People do indeed get very sick with mercury poisoning.

But low levels of metal build up in the body will not necessarily lead to all the worst symptoms.

Low levels of any toxin can lead to low level chronic symptoms, which do not necessarily inhibit daily activities, but can lead to degenerative disease, or a gradual accumulative lessening of abilities and faculties.

 

[story]

Ahh no, you misunderstand. When I've broken bones they've been due to pretty heafty impacts. 17st bloke crushing me, basketball in the face etc... I don't think I actually have brittle bones!

I was trying to say my only health problems have been self-induced.

Glad to know this, spacemonkey

but stop beating yourself up!!

 

[axon]

An odd statement. Upon what do you base this?

Not sure I see how this ^ definition of holism (treating the body as a whole, as more than a sum of its parts) is anything other than laudable.

Well, if you go to a homeopath they will give you a remedy based on your symptoms; for a cold they will not examine your feet. Why are they excluding feet, they are part of my whole body!!! If you go for Reiki they will only concentrate on waving their hands about you, they won't give you liver tests! Surely to treat the body as "a whole" you at least need to examine the whole body? Basically my gripe with the term holistic when used in this sense is that it doesn't actually mean anything practical. It's verbal masturbation.

 

[story]

Well, if you go to a homeopath they will give you a remedy based on your symptoms; for a cold they will not examine your feet. Why are they excluding feet, they are part of my whole body!!! If you go for Reiki they will only concentrate on waving their hands about you, they won't give you liver tests! Surely to treat the body as "a whole" you at least need to examine the whole body? Basically my gripe with the term holistic when used in this sense is that it doesn't actually mean anything practical. It's verbal masturbation.

This is a misunderstanding of the concept.

It is a very practical approach to healthcare.

If a holistic practitioner consults with a patient who is complaining of (let's say) a cold, they might also ask about childhood health, stress and diet, lifestyle, any other health problems, medication, recent immunisations, recent shocks or life events, allergies etc. A cold may be nothing more than a simple infection, but it could be something else entirely. A holistic approach is far more likely to get to the truth and the facts, than a limited examination of the runny nose and sore throat.

Indeed, if a patient presents with repeated chesty colds, with breathlessness, the practitioner would be well advised to examine the feet: problems in the CVS that impact on peripheral circulation may result in symptoms that affect the feet.

If a patient complains of a pain in the shoulder, the consultant will not only look at the shoulder, but will also ask about stool colour, social habits, diet, bowel habits etc. (Gall bladder problems can cause pain it eh shoulder.)

The training of any good GP includes this approach to history taking.

Check out Wouldbe's long thread about her suspected MS to see the results of healthcare that does not think outside of the box.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

Are you saying that ME/CFS is all in the mind?

That's not what the Placebo effect is though Wonderful topic

Doctors in one study successfully eliminated warts by painting them with a brightly colored, inert dye and promising patients the warts would be gone when the color wore off.

ie the power of your mind may be enough to cause a physical cure.

 

[story]

That's not what the Placebo effect is though Wonderful topic


ie the power of your mind may be enough to cause a physical cure.

yeah but warts are wierd anyway.

They come from outr space, you know



Agreed that the whole subject of placebo is fascinating.

 

[Pingu]

That's not what the Placebo effect is though Wonderful topic


ie the power of your mind may be enough to cause a physical cure.

iirc isnt this pretty much the basis for stuff like NLP?

 

[axon]

<about stuff>....The training of any good GP includes this approach to history taking.

I agree with this, but then holistic is more often used when talking about alternative practitioners than regular GPs, I guess this is what gets me as it applies to both equally. In the sense of the examples you gave earlier holistic seems to simply mean "finding out as much as possible about the patient that you think is relevant to their problem". In which case it's seems superfluous, as this is what any good practitioner (alternative or not) should do. Admittedly they don't always.

 

[tarannau]

Are you saying that ME/CFS is all in the mind?

Seeing as no-one definitively knows what CFS/ME actually is maybe you were misdiagnosed with depression.

I'm diagnosed with ME/CFS but in actual fact have moderate multiple chemical sensitivity. And as for it being all in the mind I can suffer tremendous ill effects from something before I even know it's there. Maybe I'm psychic

I didn't say that at all. Although I would argue that the mind and the placebo effect shouldn't be underestimated.

For me, I spent over a year with no energy whatsoever, everything would be draining - it was a miserable existence. I had weeks off work - previously I had only missed 1 working day in 7 years. I went through batteries of tests, blood samples and hospital visits before I was diagnosed with ME/CFS, which didn't make me feel any better if I'm honest. I doubt you could collar depression as a cause, but it may have been a factor - I'd more blame a more serious neck injury that made life a painful grind and I think my body temporarily gave up the fight after trying to ignore that injury for too long. I know that, for me at least, getting myself to feel more positive was a huge step forward, in addition to new physio/exercise and lifestyle changes.

I can't speak for your case, but surely it's comparatively easy to test for multiple chemical sensitivity? It's far from tough to work out a way of doing a double-blind test for such sensivity.

Same applies to amalgam fillings in some way. It strikes me that if they really were that devastating to mental health and wellbeing, somebody could have planned an experiment that would be statistically significant.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I can't speak for your case, but surely it's comparatively easy to test for multiple chemical sensitivity? It's far from tough to work out a way of doing a double-blind test for such sensivity.

Same applies to amalgam fillings in some way. It strikes me that if they really were that devastating to mental health and wellbeing, somebody could have planned an experiment that would be statistically significant.

You are entering into a world where double blind experiments, analysis, statistics and qualifications have no relevance.

Speculation, personal anecdotes and a few webpages are all the evidence idiots like Jazzz require.

 

[madzone]

I didn't say that at all. Although I would argue that the mind and the placebo effect shouldn't be underestimated.

For me, I spent over a year with no energy whatsoever, everything would be draining - it was a miserable existence. I had weeks off work - previously I had only missed 1 working day in 7 years. I went through batteries of tests, blood samples and hospital visits before I was diagnosed with ME/CFS, which didn't make me feel any better if I'm honest. I doubt you could collar depression as a cause, but it may have been a factor - I'd more blame a more serious neck injury that made life a painful grind and I think my body temporarily gave up the fight after trying to ignore that injury for too long. I know that, for me at least, getting myself to feel more positive was a huge step forward, in addition to new physio/exercise and lifestyle changes.

I can't speak for your case, but surely it's comparatively easy to test for multiple chemical sensitivity? It's far from tough to work out a way of doing a double-blind test for such sensivity.

Same applies to amalgam fillings in some way. It strikes me that if they really were that devastating to mental health and wellbeing, somebody could have planned an experiment that would be statistically significant.

I've never been offered any tests aside from the basic liver/thyroid/glucose etc tests that you get for fatigue. My symptoms are much broader than just fatigue though. My consultant seems quite happy to accept that multiple chemical sensitivity is an issue without any testing - mind you I'm not quite sure what he's 'for'. The effects of being around certain chemicals are sudden and accute - particularly permethrin or anything that has a substantial amount of hewavy metal in it. I was set back by using a green ceramic glaze at pottery evening classes (I didn't know what was in it until later) and recently the vets put permethrin on the dog without telling me and I was very ill again. I don't react well to paint fumes or those plug in air fresheners but I haven't a clue what's in them that would affect me and they don't make me anywhere near as ill as the other things or for anywhere near as long.

I'm not suggesting that anyone else has their fillings out, I just know that after a few weeks of having it done I srarted to see improvements in my health that have continued. To be perfectly honest I don't even care if it was placebo effect, I'm just happy to be getting better.

BTW - my mental health was fine - the effects were physical. I've neevrs aid my mental health was affected so why do you bring it up?

 

[madzone]

You are entering into a world where double blind experiments, analysis, statistics and qualifications have no relevance.

They don't seem to have any relevance for my specialist either - he seems more than happy to accept my anecdotal evidence.

 

[tarannau]

I'm not suggesting that anyone else has their fillings out, I just know that after a few weeks of having it done I srarted to see improvements in my health that have continued. To be perfectly honest I don't even care if it was placebo effect, I'm just happy to be getting better.

BTW - my mental health was fine - the effects were physical. I've neevrs aid my mental health was affected so why do you bring it up?

Eh? I didn't even mention anything to do with your mental health. You specifically mentioned that I may have been wrongly diagnosed (ie CFS rather than depression) which I thought was a little presumptuous and out of order if I'm honest.

I did mention the phrase mental health in the last paragraph but only in relation to the subject of amalgam fillings - mercury's known for its degrading effects on the mind (eg Luton's hatters made 'mad' by the high mercury levels produced by the industry). Christ knows why you seem to think it was a personal jibe

 

[tarannau]

They don't seem to have any relevance for my specialist either - he seems more than happy to accept my anecdotal evidence.

To be fair my experience of specialists is that they're happy not to quibble with anything that makes you feel better. Why make work for themselves?

 

[madzone]

To be fair my experience of specialists is that they're happy not to quibble with anything that makes you feel better. Why make work for themselves?

He's not just any old specialist though. He's national clinical lead for CFS/ME at the Department of Health so I guess it's in his intrerest to get to the bottom of things in a scientific manner.